A bit of a complex debt problem / Warrent threat with a Utility Company .

[askaq]

Hi,

I am new to the forum and this is my 1st post..

At the moment ,I am not sure if legals advisers or Solicitors may
at times respond or if responces mainly tend to be from the general
members / public.

I think it may need someone who is quite knowledgable about
such legal matters.

This is in ref to two issues...
that is in relation to a bit of a complex debt problem with a Utility Company.
and asking about some actions that a Probate executioner may have taken
against his younger brother who now both own their deceased parents property.

and also its asking in ref to the UT Company looking to take certain
actions against the outstanding debt to obtain a warrent to gain entry to
the property to change to pre pay meters as the resident is presently unable to pay


Its in ref to some time ago a remaining parent passed away
and the assets and their home was left to her two Sons.
One of the younger Sons still lives in the Property.
The Older one lives at his own home but he , delt with the
Probate and became the Executioner.

Can a Probate Executioner have the right to pass long term outstanding
past owed Utility Bills for a shared property to his brother who still
lives in the property.( where as he lives in his own property).BUT The
Brother believes he will still owe some of the debt.and should NOT
have been able to have informed the Utility Company and if this is proven
to be so..ie he has informed them...The Brother wants to know if this
may be unlawful or he can oppose it with the Utility Company at least
until he has been able to get the right advice he is in agreement with.


So far, They have not as yet decided to sell the home.
and the Younger brother had delt with the bills
for the utilities.. BUT they forgot to inform the Utility Company.
and later the younger brother ran into a series of problems
and has ended up with health and financial problems from
a issue that occurred from his last employment and later he
has his benefits stopped and had been unable to pay the
bills for some time.

The Younger brother has been trying to get some advice
in ref to his past problems, but so far he has not been
able to get any to his satisfaction.

To try to cut the story shorter..

sometime later the brothers had a dispute in ref to
considering selling the house ..and the executioner
obtained some legal advice where he was informed
he maybe able force the property to be sold, even if
the younger brother was againsts it as he was not
in a position to pay him his halvein order for him to
hold on to the property. but hoped to pay him his halve
in the future.

Prior to this.. any bills that were arriving were
addressed as to the " Executioners of the deceased".


Then in recent months the Younger brother has started to receive letters
from the UT company in his name only..and NOT as the executions..
and the UT company are asking for the outstanding payments or they
intend to threaten to obtain a warrent to gain entry into the house and
change the meters to prepay ones in which the younger brother
can will still not be able to pay..

The younger brother now thinks that the older brother has informed
the utility company and also suggested to them that the bills
are now to be put in his name only..

IF it was found to be illegal for the Executioner older brother to
had informed them and for them to act in the way that they have
by now them referring to just the one brother.. as well as
threatening to enter his home to chnage to prepay meters.

Would you think that he could challenge this before they
attempt to take the further actions that they aim to do.
that may also make them back off at least until he can
try to resolve his problems.

in respect that they addressing their letters at the moment
assuming that the Younger brother is the only person to
be referred to rather than to th people who act on
behalf of the deceased.

The Younger brother has tried to obtain advice from
the internet and believes he has found suggestions
that NO Utility Company should be able to enter
a persons property for a debt only issue...

He has made aware that UT compnies will still attempt to apply for a warent.
(But its suggested that they really should not) and they do this as most
people do not know what to do to challenge it... but if they were to contact
the Magestrates Courts in which the UT Company applied for the warrent..
that they could then challenge it.and he led to believe usually for debt
problem the courts would cancel the warrent.

BUT he still cannot understand how the law allows them to still do this..

and he has found egs where the UT compnaies do break in properties
for debt only problems.

Would any legal adviser AGREE with this or NOT ?

But on upon questioning the UT company, they
still insist that they can enter with their
warrent to change the meters.

His research suggested that they only enter on a
health and safty basis ..or maybe if the meter was of a
certain age... BUT that does mean that the
should be able to force prepay meters with
his consent.

I would be grateful for any advice.

Regards

Askaq

[islandgirl]

I have no idea re the complexity surrounding the will etc but I sign these warrents and they are nearly always for debts, not safety. The letters we see state the amount owed. The unility company has to prove they have written several times formally to the address and are asked if there is anyone vulnerable. If the appropriate answers are given a warrent to enter will be issued. A prepay meter stops the debt rising.

[askaq]

I appreciate your reply Island Girl,

That is interesting that you actually work in that occupation...
and if so, what can one say to that to challenege one may wonder. !

But can I ask have you been aware of any people who may have attempted to challenge such a thing...

where I am led to believe that the debtor maybe able to find out where and when the warrents maybe be applied for , at I assume a magistrates court... where they may turn up to inform them of their circumstances... such as
they are unable to pay for what ever reason and cannot afford even to pay in a pre pay meter.
or to further expain other circumstancs such as health reasons that they did not want to inform
their details to anyone else.

Also that they believe that there are laws or regulations that do state that for such situations that
the says that they can not have to the right to enter persons property based upon a debt only.
as its classed as a civil matter.

Also person can be vulnerable, but not by any official means...
such as they have NOT informed a Doctor or any other medical system..

or in one case I am aware, of A doctor told them with the problem that they had that they
could do nothing for them... (NOW whether that got put on their record from some years ago
or not... they do not know for sure... but if they did need to later bring that up for some reason
to try to explan their situation... it may not have been put on their medical reoord as proof and the
Doctor may not long be available or may not recall or now take a different view)

and would the really need to have done so, ie inform anyone of their medical problem...

and if its was any form of what these they may also dscribe as mental issues..
one may be on very tricky topic when it comes to admiitting or idntifying with any
proof about such situations...

at one time with the benefits situation people could get over their problems better or
keep them covered up better, but the DWP system now can prevent them doing this..
and can cause severe more indepth costly problems both for them and the system
in longer terms... Depending on ones view points on it..

but personally I find the system now puts more people in debt and on the streets.

For some people do not want their problems shown on any records..
Some may wonder is Data protection is supposed to work in more than one way..

The person concerned has had their benfits stopped because they asked to have a medical and
he does not want his problem on any record..

So if they turned up to a / the court and were to try to explain that... I wonder If that could have any influence.
if they did not want to have informed the utility company before hand for what ever their reasons..

I will try to find the documents that state what I have described...and post them when I can find them,
unless some one else may respond who can confirm what I have described.

thank you

Askaq

I have no idea re the complexity surrounding the will etc but I sign these warrents and they are nearly always for debts, not safety. The letters we see state the amount owed. The unility company has to prove they have written several times formally to the address and are asked if there is anyone vulnerable. If the appropriate answers are given a warrent to enter will be issued. A prepay meter stops the debt rising.

[echat11]

This might help if the younger brother (you say he has problems he is dealing with) is a 'vulnerable persons' -

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...payment-meter/

He can be added to the Priority Services Register -

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information...vices-register

[islandgirl]

By all means turn up at court and speak to the person from the power company who has the job of getting them signed. The power companies apply for warrants because of debts and are granted them. I wonder have you been reading the Common Law / Freeman on the land stuff on the internet perhaps? If so, don't,

[askaq]

I dont know what happened but i tried to reply with a fair amount of content and on trying to post it said the post had gone to another page..

I assume page 2.. BUT on looking for it, nothing has appeared... I will to try to repost if I can still do so..

[askaq]

As far a I know.. the CAB link would only apply if the person can show official evidence as to their vulnerabilies..
such if they had a ref to dealing with Doctors / medical issues or certain other related sectors.

THey could contact the UT Company, but before they consider doing so... they are trying to find out where they may stand in
ref to the questions that I have asked about. They are also aware of apply for trust etc to aid to pay the debt,
but they may turned down on trying that approach anyway.also they dont know where they will stand after that if they fail to
sort their other problems out or find a way to earn an income to pay future bills.

Today, 17:17:PM

This might help if the younger brother (you say he has problems he is dealing with) is a 'vulnerable persons' -
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...payment-meter/

He can be added to the Priority Services Register -
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information...vices-register

Based on what they have been led to believe in terms of applying to the court.. they also wonder why they should have to. or why a letter or phone call to inform would not be accepted.. if at all having to do anything if law suggests what they are doing is wrong...if the law suggest different when dealing with debt.

NO I dont think they have seen anything on Com Law/Freeman

I will try to post the other details seperate from this reply after my last failed attempt.

By all means turn up at court and speak to the person from the power company who has the job of getting them signed. The power companies apply for warrants because of debts and are granted them. I wonder have you been reading the Common Law / Freeman on the land stuff on the internet perhaps? If so, don't,

[askaq]

This link refers to

Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954

that may be not easy to fully comprehend..

but I was led to believe that this does NOT refer to stating that if they apply for a warrent that they cn gain entry based on a debt issue.or without the property owners consent...

Yes they have wrote several letters.. but so there has been no reply made while we are trying to investigate various things.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...3/21/section/2

The other info I was trying post earlier was quite long and maybe thats why a msg appeared to say it needed to go onto another page.

[askaq]

I just tried to post the longer article again and ... a same message came up as before...

so I m not sure whether I cn post it or not or if there is a 2nd page somewhere.. but when I tried to look for it, i could not find it.

I may have to try to post it in smaller sections...

Replies below are on the next page. Click here to go to the next page.

[askaq]

I am now trying to post the article in a few different sections..

the links below... you would need to seach online under their descriptions.


This is an article wrote by someone who had a similar situation to what I refer to. but was a British Gas case.

but I believe this applies to all Energy UT company cases.

IT does attempt to point out the laws or rights for the house owner to contest a warrent of entry for other issues other than
things like Health and safty or criminal issues.

Warrant Of Entry By Gas & Electricity Companies

This site came about from personal experience. It was when I was confronted with British Gas applying for a warrant of entry to fit a prepayment meter for a debt.
After many hours of research, I discovered that all the utility companies are committing fraud in courts every day.

The Law

The Gas (Prepayment Meter) Regulations 2006 Click here

The Gas Act 1986 – Billing Disputes Click Here

Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 1980 c. 43Part II Civil debt Section 58 Click Here

Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980: 1980 c. 43Part IV Evidence generally Section 98 Click Here

Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980: 1980 c. 43Part IV OffencesSection 107 Click Here

Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980: 1980 c. 43Part V Case statedSection 111 Click Here

Powers of Entry Bill Click Here

[askaq]

Part 2

Warrant of Entry Application

[QUOTE]

As we drill down into these warrant of entry applications we can see massive fraud occurring in these venues hired for the day. If we look at the wording of the letter from British Gas, we can see that this is not a summons from a court. It is their letter. telling us they will apply for a legal warrant of entry. (See Image)
Look at the Magistrates Court Act 1980 (See Image) only a justice of the peace can issue a summons. This letter is not a summons. There is no information laid before the justices.
When you phone the Magistrates Court they deny any knowledge of the application.
So, what jurisdiction are these venues operating under?
The gas agent will apply for the warrant of entry under health and safety to gain entry to fit a prepayment meter. There is no body of words that permits entry to fit a prepayment meter. The fitting of a prepayment meter is by consent only.
In Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954
You are here: 1954 c. 21 (Regnal. 2_and_3_Eliz_2)Section 2 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...3/21/section/2
the justice shall not grant a warrant under this section in respect of the right of entry in question unless he is satisfied (b)that admission to the premises for that purpose was sought in a case of emergency and was refused by or on behalf of the occupier; IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY.

Read this, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...made/data.xht…
In order for a warrant to be issued, the more recent 1980 Magistrates Courts Act, (which therefore has precedence over the outdated Right of Entry act 1954, is clear that there has had to have been a hearing, to which the court has an obligation by law to invite you to in order to give you the opportunity to defend yourself (i.e have a fair trial).
Therefore, if the court hasn’t actually summoned you for a hearing then there is no official hearing.
Even if there was a hearing, the court is obliged to inform the defendant (us) that the claimant/creditor (Utility company) has been successful in their claim. All correspondence from the Utility companies are not official court documentation and thus are fraudulent when impersonating the courts.
Rights of Entry act, in combination with the Electricity act 1989, ‘if there is anygenuine dispute between the consumer and the utility company, a warrant of entry CANNOT be issued.
No one in the court is sitting under their judicial oath.

[askaq]

Part 3

NOTICE TO AGENT IS NOTICE TO PRINCIPLE NOTICE TO PRINCIPAL IS NOTICE TO AGENT

I have received a letter from British Gas. It states ‘We’ll apply for a legal warrant of entry at Poole Magistrates, The Law Courts, Park Road Poole Dorset BH15 2NS on the 19th October 2017 at 15.00.

So that I may remain in honour I require the following. Under CPR rule Sec 31.14 I am entitled to full disclosure. I now order Poole Magistrates Court to provide the following and comply with the CPR Rule 31.14

1. The Magistrates Courts Act 1980 Issue of summons to accused or warrant for his arrest. Information has to be laid before a justice of the peace. The Magistrates Court Act is clear that only a Court can summon a person to a hearing? On information being laid before a justice of the peace that a person has, or is suspected of having, committed an offence, the justice may issue—
(a) a summons directed to that person requiring him to appear before a magistrates’ court to answer the information.

2. What information was laid before a Justice Of The Peace?

2. Is the letter from British Gas a Summons to appear for the purposes of the Magistrates Court Act 1980?

3. I require the name of the law society member from British Gas who laid the information, claim/complaint before a Justice Of The Peace.

4. I require the name of the justice of the peace, Clerk of the court who heard the information, claim/complaint and allowed it to proceed.

5. I require the unique case number of the information laid, claim/complaint.

6. Was the information laid, claim/complaint in Poole Magistrates Court heard by a Justice Of The Peace, with a clerk of the court who is a member of the Law Society under oath of penalty or perjury considered the application and issued the order?


7. Provide me with the name of the Justice Of The Peace, and/or legally trained, Law Society, clerk who will hear the application on the 19th October 2017

8. Will the Justice Of The Peace and Clerk be sitting on their Oath, which swears to support the Coronation Oath to uphold “the laws and usages of the realm”?

9. Will the Justice of The Peace, Clerk of the court be sitting “judicially”, or acting as a corporate “administrative officer”?

10. Why I not provided with full disclosure of the information being laid with the Justice Of The Peace?

11. Is the application in Poole Magistrates Court a lawful and/or legally convened court?

12. Is it correct that In order for any warrant to be issued, the more recent 1980 Magistrates Courts Act, (which therefore has precedence over the outdated Right of Entry act 1954, is clear that there has to have been a hearing, to which the court has an obligation by law to invite you to in order to give you the opportunity to defend yourself?

13. If I have never been summoned, by a court, to any hearing is a warrant of entry made by a court is a dereliction of duty? the justices, the clerk has not followed the correct, legal court process and failed in their duty?

14. Does all the above breach my Article 6 Human Rights to a fair Trial?

15. Does this breach my Article 8 Human Rights? – Right to a private and family life. Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and correspondence.

16. Is it correct that warrants issued under this old Right of Entry Act are issued illegally, as the Magistrates Courts Act 1980, takes precedence over the 1954 Gas Act?

17. Where in the Gas Act 1954 is the body of words that allows a Warrant of Entry to fit a prepayment meter? I point you to Sec 2 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...3/21/section/2


18. In The Gas act 1954 Sec 2.2b (2) If, in a case to which the preceding subsection applies, the relevant enactment does not require notice of an intended entry to be given to the occupier of the premises, the justice shall not grant a warrant under this section in respect of the right of entry in question unless he is satisfied—
(a) that admission to the premises for the purpose specified in the information was sought by a person lawfully requiring entry in the exercise of that right, and was so sought after not less than twenty-four hours’ notice of the intended entry had been given to the occupier; or
(b) that admission to the premises for that purpose was sought in a case of emergency and was refused by or on behalf of the occupier;

19. Where in The Gas Safety (Rights of Entry) Regulations 1996 is the body of words that allows a warrant of entry to a prepayment meter? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...made/data.xht…

20. Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 Section 2 states that the only reasonably required entry would be for a safety issue or criminal act such as abstraction (theft) of gas. There is no mention of anything such as the changing of meters and the act by omission validates this as not being a reasonable cause for a warrant of entry.

21. This is confirmed by section 3 of the Gas Act which states: to a case of emergency are references to a case in which a person lawfully requiring entry to the premises in question, in the exercise of a right of entry to which this Act applies, has reasonable cause to believe that circumstances exist which are likely to endanger life or property, and that immediate entry to the premises is necessary to verify the existence of those circumstances or to ascertain their cause or to effect a remedy.

22. A warrant under (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 Section 2 requires individual consent, and PROOF from British Gas Trading that an emergency situation exists which warrants their entry as life or property are likely to be endangered.

23. There is an up to date and valid gas safety certificate in place and would be produced for the court to witness.

24. If the gas agent claims that it is to replace a meter or get a meter reading then neither are safety issues. I will require the magistrate to dismiss the warrant as fraudulent on the grounds of self incrimination and perjury and will lay information before the court of charges of perjury against the gas agent.

[echat11]

I just tried to post the longer article again and ... a same message came up as before...

so I m not sure whether I cn post it or not or if there is a 2nd page somewhere.. but when I tried to look for it, i could not find it.

I may have to try to post it in smaller sections...

To be honest, you need to post a concise / brief summary of the situation. Ask relevant questions.

Your local Council will have a community worker who might be able to assist with this situation.

[islandgirl]

As I suspected all this looks like Common Law rubbish to me:

8. Will the Justice Of The Peace and Clerk be sitting on their Oath, which swears to support the Coronation Oath to uphold “the laws and usages of the realm”?

Do not get taken in by it.

I sign these things all the time. They are legal. They are for debts. There is little more to say. These arguments never work.

[askaq]

I still dont know if the info that I posted is classed as Common Law Island Girl,
I will have to try to research this further if I can.

You refer to one of the listed points that I posted ... which I am not fully sure exactly what it means, but I assume it refers to
the people who work in the court system who deal with such things.

But I also do not know if both the refs to the
Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954

have any relevance along the lines of what I have been suggested to me as being to having validity in challenging the laws on this
along the lines of the UT Companies ignoring them and maybe getting away with doing so along with the Courts allowing it.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...3/21/section/2

and also there are several other things other than the No 8 ref that you refer to that also describe various issues of concern.

I suppose until I find out more about the Common law ref that you make and am led what you say about it being misleading as being correct.. Then at the moment I still dont really know.

I respect you being willing to comment on this esp if you work in the Courts doing the job you do. and appreciate your comments. I also understand if its part of your job that you may not want to or be able to say too much or maybe to agree or accept such things if its not in your best interest.

but being new to the forum, I am NOT usre also How any legal advisor or Solicitor may judge such thing...
and it may need a Lawyers view on it... although different experts may have varied opinions...
as many things in life seem to be questionable !

sometimes its also down to the situation that we maybe in as to whether or not we may be willling
to consider if somethings seem questonable or unlawful.

eg those working in certain parts of the law may have opinions one sided and persons who are
questioning certain laws are likely to look for alternatives that may favor their situation.

It also maybe a case that Solicitors may not offer opinions or comments on this forum.

But thank you for your comments.

As I suspected all this looks like Common Law rubbish to me:

8. Will the Justice Of The Peace and Clerk be sitting on their Oath, which swears to support the Coronation Oath to uphold “the laws and usages of the realm”?

Do not get taken in by it.

I sign these things all the time. They are legal. They are for debts. There is little more to say. These arguments never work.