* SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

[patientdirectscam]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

They couldn't send bailiffs unless they went to court and obtained a Court Judgment against you first - that wouldn't happen as you would defend the claim ( and win IMO ).


How to the terms they have presented to you compare with the paperwork Lynnzer posted - http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/PDTerms.pdf ?

Good news on the chargebacks you've won so far.

Thanks for the advice Amethyst

So does that mean they won't actually send bailiffs? Only threaten to? In which case I can just go back to them and tell them it needs to go through the courts first?

The terms & conditions attached to the contract they sent me look identical to the ones Lynnzer posted.

[Amethyst]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Yes they have to go through court before they can send bailiffs. If you write to them tell them that you intend to strongly defend any court action they may chose to take.

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

It's unlikely they'll want to take a court action for a small amount. They have a duty to mitigate their loss and the only loss they can prove is one that entails anything completed which has incurred expense to them. Let's say they have done artwork for a cost of £30, then they can't expect to get more in value as it falls within the definition of betterment.

I still haven't heard anything from my Visa company but today I got an email:

We write in relation to the digital advertising agreement at Hartlepool Hospital and Peterlee Community Hospital.
This email is just to give you an update in relation to the publication of your advertisement at the above sites.
We have been informed today that there is a delay in the installation of our advertising screens in this site. We apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause, as soon as our screen is installed we will then publish your advertisement and update you further. Please be aware that your advertising time is not affected by this delay, your time does not commence until the day you are published.
If you have any questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact our office.
Kind Regards,
Andrew Storey
Customer Services
Multimedia International Services Ltd
I responded by saying "I'm sorry but I don't have any contract with Multimedia International Ltd."

Let's see what they come back with but I don't expect them to lie down on it without threats.
I wish them luck with that as well as clause 22 allows a contractee to work in accordance to the same conditions as the principal. ie the ability to tell porkies with no place for argument.
So, in fact it could be said the contract was signed with the full intentions to just get rid of the aggressive rep and with every intent to cancel it late, ie telling a porkie when signing acceptance.

"22. It is agreed and declared that this Agreement contains all the terms and conditions between the parties hereto, supercedes all prior agreements and arrangements with regard to the advertisements and that the company has made no warranty (oral or otherwise) except expressly stated herein. It is further agreed and declared that no monopoly rights shall be enjoyed by the advertiser unless endorsed on the Agreement and initiated by the Company's agent.
Without imitating the generality of the foregoing, neither party shall have any remedy in respect of any untrue statement made to it upon which it may have relied in entering into the Agreement purports to exclude liability for any fraudulent statement or act."

That's a whole load of gobbledegook to me but it seems to exclude either party from a remedy for untruthful statements or acts. I can't see how a retailer cannot simply say they made an untruthful statement of acceptace to the contracted terms so the contract cannot stand.

I seem to think that a poorly worded clause or one with an obscure meaning is for the benefit of the "consumer" in such cases, but don't know if that just applies to non B2B contracts.

Anyway, as above, they have lost nothing so a claim will be of little financial benefit to them.

[Amethyst]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

We've got a court claim we're supporting someone with for a 'wastage fee' of £15 at the moment... these kind of companies can tend to rely on the 'fear' of a court claim, and the 87% of claims that go to default judgment, rather than any true legal claim they might or might not have.

Wonder if it's worth a call to the Hartlepool Hospital and Peterlee Community Hospital regarding whether they are in the process of installing multimedia screens and whether they intend them to carry advertising, and if they are if they can tell you which company they are going through.

We did that with a few NHS trusts on the 'staff benefits' advertising issue ( very similar ) and they often just said they didn't use it.

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

That's going to happen.

I also notice a fatal error on the contract that will see off any action.
It's based on a wrong party point. Won't divulge more just yet. It's not unknown for these people to scan the forums for info.

My wife has also seen the copy of the contract. She says the signature has been added to - altered, and the "name" of the signatory which is supposed to be in normal text has been added in as handwriting afterwards too.

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

This may be a useful starting point for others finding this topic.

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Things are happening.
1st is that I got an email yesterday saying to view the advert for approval. I told them to stuff it, more or less.

Next I got a Direct Debit instruction for checking the details, due to start in November. Have also told them to stuff that too. The bank can't take any forward notice of a DD being set up without consent. I just have to keep my eye on the situation and make a cancellation if one is placed, which would also result in a chargeback if money was taken.

I have heard nothing from my emails telling them to sod off, nor have I heard anything from the bank regarding an appeal against the chargeback.

I'm also filling you in on my comment from the previous post.
The contract has an incorrect name on it. That is, it doesn't show us a being a Ltd Co.
Also the address is wrong. They have put the shop address down instead of the company's registered address. As there used to be a previous incarnation of the company trading as a partnership without the Ltd at the end of it, that was closed in 2005 it would seem to present them with insurmountable problems if they decide to take action.

If they raise a claim for breach of contract against the company on the signed contract it will be destined for the bin. That company closed 12 years ago.

They also cannot add in the new company identity as it will be different from that on the signed contract.

I believe that's what's called a GOTCHA.

I've also sat and considered everything my wife and her staff told me about the presentation of the advertising in the shop.
It was mentioned by my wife that a 2 year contract would be too long and it was agreed that it would be done yearly. The contract doesn't say that. It still says two years. That's definite misrepresentation but their clause 22 disallows that to be used as a means of redress. However, the link in my previous post still says that misrepresentation can be a tool to back out of a contract in some situations even if there's a clause saying the lies and misrepresentation cannot be a cause to cancel the contract.

[patientdirectscam]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Received this invoice from them in the post today. This is the first monthly invoice we've received from them.
The monthly payment in no way ties up with the amount shown on the contract.
https://ibb.co/eyLkuk

Contract states "This will be a deposit (non refundable) equal to one half of the the first years value of this agreement,plus VAT, at the time of signing. The remaining balance, plus VAT, will be split equally over an 18 month period and will be collected by direct debit or credit card commencing on
dispatch of advertising proof."

I can't come to their figure of £99.20 when I do the sums but I had another thought as well. If you start paying the monthly payment on commencement of advertising, do you then get a payment break after 18 months? Given that I've heard the contract automatically rolls over I assume they'll keep taking the monthly payments forever?
Not that these minor points actually matter right now but I've come slightly obsessed with this.

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

It's easy to get obsessed.
My last session with them included mention that so far no VAT Invoice had been received, which is a legal requirement anyway. So the fact that they have sent a proforma invoice which shows no VAT number is also unlawful. They cannot demand payment to produce one for you.

You have to wonder if they actually declare these on their VAT returns, or whether the money goes straight to a bank in Grand Cayman. I searched the Panama files for any indication of them but found nothing. In fact why would they be? Grand Cayman is just as secretive.
There are so many anomalies in the whole presentation right through to the actual collection of payments and the misrepresentation along the way. To say nothing of the alteration of contracts.

For anyone who gets involved in their advertising they really should at least get a reminder of the fact that they have to cancel before the 6 month end of contract to avoid a rollover. I think there's legislation in the pipeline to prevent this sort of scam anyway.

So, it's now well after my chargeback and my last mail to them telling them that they are on a loser if they do actually go ahead with the advertising as they said they would. I told them to stuff it, basically.

I might be early in saying this, but all's gone quiet. I was half expecting solicitors letters for a breach of contract claim but then they would have to answer why the signature has been altered/added to on the contract and then try to justify claiming against an entity that no longer exists anyway.

[patientdirectscam]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Hi Lynnzer - do you have any more details as to how your wife's signature was altered / added to? I'm trying to piece together gaps in my hazy memory of the day of our visit from the salesman. Patient Direct tried getting in contact with me last week via telephone but I wasn't in. I'll tell them next time they phone to put everything in writing. They seem to love corresponding over the phone - I guess it's because they can be extremely rude without me having any proof!

[Lynnzer]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Hi Lynnzer - do you have any more details as to how your wife's signature was altered / added to? I'm trying to piece together gaps in my hazy memory of the day of our visit from the salesman. Patient Direct tried getting in contact with me last week via telephone but I wasn't in. I'll tell them next time they phone to put everything in writing. They seem to love corresponding over the phone - I guess it's because they can be extremely rude without me having any proof!

The signature was just signed with a letter then a surname, ie J Dobbs. The alteration was made to show the full first name so it now shows as Jill J Dobbs.

The addition of the "Jill" is a clear alteration as it presumes that J actually stands for Jill when it could equally be Joan. Anyway, it's not "as signed".

Don't do anything over the phone. You have to "lead" them into a trap by email.
All correspondence is then easily accessible for use in any court case they may decide to take.

I posed them lots of questions regarding the legitimacy of their business that basically demanded a no-win answer. Such as "Can you confirm why Patient Direct is absent from the Companies House register".

Don't ask them to validate things they can. It adds to their legitimacy.

[Amethyst]

Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

Vat number - gb 741327060. ???

From the GP side - might be of interest

https://practiceindex.co.uk/gp/patient-direct-uk

• Patient Direct - Agreement
• Patient Direct - Brochure

[Cubsfan]

Re: Business contract cancellation

That Nick Slater certainly gets about he ripped me off as well, misquoted the cost, the size, design and frequency of the adverts. On the order form he got the name of my non limited company wrong and left the DD amount blank, again telling me one price then charging another taking money from my account that was different and at a different date to what was agreed.

[Cubsfan]

Re: Business contract cancellation

This is almost identical to what happened with me, misquoted the price, misled me on the design of the ads as well as the frequency of display, told me it was one year with a second as an option and took out more money from my account and at a different time to what he said. There is a section (220 on the back of the agreement that basically says they don't have to tell the truth when entering into the agreement but as it also says neither party I might use that line and say I didn't mean to pay you either.
I have written into Action Fraud, NHS England, NHS Protect, the regional NHS trusts, the surgeries and posted warnings on every business networking group on Facebook I can find. I am also going to contact each of the other advertisers and remind them of the need to cancel by recorded delivery with more than 6 months notice or get an automatic renewal fee.

- - - Updated - - -

For some reason on my carbon copy he added my name although I signed it

[Amethyst]

Re: Business contract cancellation

If you do so, ensure your letter is kept factual or you could be accused of tortious interference ( or defamation ).