Ebay, Gumtree & Autotrader Vehicle / Car Scams

[wales01man]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Were this accounts opened in branch or online?
If in branch is there a common denominator like bank person dealing with application or a certain date?
I ask because it seems to simple for these scammers to open accounts I always thought certain financial details were asked and checked at the major banks.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

On a general note it appears to me that UK financial institutions have adopted recklessly lax procedures and the general public are suffering the consequences.

There was the instance a year or two back where a payday loan company was granting loans against merely a name and date of birth and then charging unrelated individuals being impersonated by the criminal with the repayments. That can hardly be called 'identity theft'. It's the company being reckless and incompetent.

The shocking thing is that a company is able to initiate a charge to a person's bank account without having any authority to do so and having conducted virtually no checks to establish the identity of the person they're dealing with. What irks me most that the companies who hold no authority then expect the victim to prove that he didn't have any involvement in the fraud, when actually their whole procedure represents an open invitation to fraudsters.

This news article caught my attention.

http://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.u...risks/?ref=rss

LAND Registry has launched a new service called Property Alert aimed at anyone who thinks their property could be at risk of fraud.
Property fraud can happen in many ways. For example, fraudsters might attempt to acquire ownership of a property by using forged documents or by impersonating the registered owner.

It strikes me that this service is designed more to protect lenders who don't properly identify borrowers than owners, because at the end of the day, no one can acquire ownership based on forged documents. The only loser will be the lender. I certainly won't be making use of the service as any lender foolish enough to make a loan against the property deserves to be out of pocket.

Once the fundamental provision of bank accounts has become lax, the opportunities for fraud are massive as the criminal gets an identity and the opportunity to arrange loans, mortgages, company accounts, giving limitless possibilities for fraud. In most instances 'identity theft' is the fault of the financial company that hasn't properly identified the party with whom they're dealing.

It's very sad that individuals are losing amounts of money that hurt them very badly, but soon enough the criminals will become more sophisticated and learn how to make the banks hurt too, because that's where their richest picking will come from.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

It's very frustrating that people have no comprehension of the risks of buying online and, of course, it isn't in the interests of companies to highlight them but the risk isn't just of losing your money. These people use simple phishing and hacking techniques that work against commercial companies and merely by contacting them people risk losing a lot more than just their money.

Without going in to detail, people will hand over their email address, their name and address and their banking information and, without even downloading key loggers or any such nasty, the scammers have all they need to issue personally targeted phishing mails containing details that make them look completely bona fide. Identity thieves have pulled off major frauds using a lot less information than most people hand over to these crooks.

Most of their frauds are based on 'money mule' accounts, which have a limited life span. How much better if they can take over a victim's bank account ? If you're successfully phished, you have lost your account and the money in it. In that case a person is likely to find their account black-listed if stolen money is seen going through it.

Considering the effort we see them putting in to recruiting money mules at SW I'm surprised that there has been no evidence that they've worked this out for themselves - but they will. Their phishing and hacking techniques aren't sophisticated but they're remarkably successful and spoofing mails and websites is something at which they're very good. It's more important to avoid these people than find a bargain.

[Tools]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Were this accounts opened in branch or online?
If in branch is there a common denominator like bank person dealing with application or a certain date?
I ask because it seems to simple for these scammers to open accounts I always thought certain financial details were asked and checked at the major banks.

"Due to Data Protection" they cannot tell us, however, we have ways and means and it is being looked at to see if there are identifiable patterns, MUCH LIKE THE BANKS SHOULD BE!!!

Boycie, I share your frustrations as you know and it shouldn't be down to the likes of you, me and all others involved in trying to disrupt these scams. The meetings we have had, and are due to have, do seem to be highlighting the issue and making the right noises, but as you know it will never stop entirely or will just move onto the next "saleable" item. There are many frauds online as you know, but with limited time and resources we can only try to deal with the relatively higher value items such as cars etc as this makes the biggest impact on both the scammer and the victim.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

If it is brought to the attention of a bank that an account is being used to perpetrate fraud then legally, and for their own protection, they should at the very least report it to the authorities and sensibly take steps to investigate and close it, if it's confirmed to be used in fraud. The point being that victims subsequent to the initial fraud report could contend that the bank have been negligent in failing to take appropriate action, and what that action is can be found on most official sites. The risk cannot be quantified (accountants don't like unquantified risk) and, if the victim is HMRC or another bank, the amount could be substantial and the claimant not someone who's frightened to litigate.

If someone mortgaged my home and laundered the money through a fraudulent account they won't get the money from me. This thread has arisen from one type of fraud, buyers losing money to fake car sellers, but it makes use of 'money mule' bank accounts that form the basis of many types of fraud. I'm dealing with it on the basis of attempting to protect individuals but banks and financial institutions should be much more aware of the risk these accounts pose to themselves.

I'm offering to buy cars from scammers all day long - only from confirmed scammers and because I can do so anonymously and safely for no benefit to me. We each do what we can.

[Tools]

Re: Barclays and vehicle scam via ebay and gumtree

Could you pass onto me the account numbers you have baited please Boycie

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

When I bait them for account numbers I already have a path to ensure that the accounts are reported and dealt with and I'm confident that it's effective. If you want details for another reason I'm happy to share but currently I'm using disposable mails that I'm not wanting to answer. It enables me to make up any mail address I want with minimum effort, and I can gum up their front end operation with pointless enquiries that are going to give them problems sorting from genuine ones.

I'll start baiting for account details again soon but I've recently figured out and begun a new method of showing the scam details at SW that makes it quicker and easier for me to detail them in the forum so that they're available for Google searches and use by other baiters. The trick is never to do more work than the scammer and keep them working hard. Ideally I'll be mixing 'blind' enquiries with ones I actively bait so that they're kept so busy they can't see any pattern to what I'm doing.

I'm trying to encourage more of my colleagues to join me and I know that there are some others working on it. The more doing it, the more effective it will be.

I should be able to send 10 'blind' enquiries a night and 10 baiting mails a week and if 4 others do the same, that leaves them to handle 350 'blind' enquiries and 50 baits a week which will put a lot of strain on their system. I should be able to set that up for everyone's benefit, but not the scammer's.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Don't get me started.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2577970/Pay-bills-direct-one-phone-System-cut-need-remember-sort-codes-account-numbers.html

Technology to allow direct payments between mobile phones was unveiled by the big banks yesterday. The system cuts out the need to remember sort codes and bank account details.
Instead, you type on your phone the mobile number of the person or business you want to pay.

I'm sure that some people will do it, but the mobile phone is the most inherently insecure system known to man and the idea of combining it with direct access to your banking, linked to your phone number sounds wildly reckless.

I've only just this second read this but it then means is that hackers need only to 'spoof' your phone number to steal your money.

Instead of bank details, users can send money to phone numbers

I can barely comprehend all the ramifications but this appears to rely on a phone number providing some degree of security which seems a fundamentally flawed proposition considering the current problems.

[Tools]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

If you want details for another reason I'm happy to share but currently I'm using disposable mails that I'm not wanting to answer.

Yes please Boycie

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

I apologise for harping on about the banks desires to change the way we make payments but, if you hadn't realised by now, the banks tend to use distraction techniques to avoid people see what they're really doing.

Banks want to get rid of cheques ? - of course they do, but not so much because they're paper, bulky and expensive to handle but they have to be handled in accordance with laws that give the 'payer' much better protection than they have with electronic payments, as all victims of these vehicle scams will by now have realised.

In simple terms, if I issue a cheque in favour of 'Vlad the Impaler' and anyone other than 'Vlad' pays it in, then the bank risks being liable to me for that payment. I also therefore know who the money has gone to. If I make a payment to Vlad the Impaler account number 365412341, then not only can I not be sure that the money went to him, the bank won't actually tell me who has actually received the money.

Which situation do you think the bank prefers ? The sooner banks can dispose of cheques the better as far as they're concerned. Now, imagine you have your banking payment app on your mobile phone and one day you ring your bank and find that all your money has disappeared and the bank tell you that they received a verified instruction from your phone to pay all the money to Tashkent. If the banks says they received a verified electronic verified message, you've had it and the bank are gong to be as helpful to you as they are with current victims of online fraud.

You will only have recourse if you can prove that the bank received a fraudulent instruction and they're not likely to help you do that.

The primary reason that banks want their apps on everyone's mobile phone is that it's the ultimate marketing tool. We notice you're abroad sir and can't see that you've taken out travel insurance. Connecting you, your account number, your phone number and mobile phone gives them an overview of your life, it's frightening and if you lose or have it stolen the consequences are horrific - insurance sir ?

[Tools]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Completely agree, any joy with those account numbers yet Boycie, could do with them asap.

[Tools]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

EXC, mysellf and a.n.other met today with the NCA it went very well and some positive feedback from them, including some information we were not aware of, for obvious reasons I cannot post up here.

They made some good proposals as to how we can work with them to fight against this and other issues, potentially we may become directly involved in Operation Sterling . As part of that we will be able to work directly with the likes of the BBA, Ebay etc.

The account numbers we gave them in advance of the meeting were particularly helpful and a few of them have directly helped one ongoing investigation.

Boycie, I really could do with those account numbers you have asap

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Sorry Tools but I have discovered that we share the same reporting contact, so I'm told.

I haven't been baiting scammers recently as I've been busy keeping a rolling list of fraudulent adverts updated at SW but I'll be doing so shortly. I produce it in a form so that anyone who knows how to bait safely, and has the time, can join in. It also serves a warning function as anyone making a Google search will come across it.

I think that the the situation with regard to the use of fraudulent bank accounts in the UK is out of control and, with my background and interest in fraud, I have many recent examples of news stories that illustrate my point. As damaging it is to people who lose thousands of pounds through these accounts it's incredible that banks don't appear to have grasped the fact they can be used to steal much larger sums from themselves. In the last day or two there was a case reported of an IT worker at a major UK bank who created dummy accounts to steal over £1m. Simple banking procedures and checks should make this impossible.

The criminals hacking and posting fraudulent adverts on Autotrader UK are worryingly well organised and it's not a solitary person doing it. The same formats are appearing in the USA and Australia too, meaning that a lot of people must be involved with a complex set up, and that's not mentioning the money laundering set up supporting it all. By definition it's large scale organised crime, and no one can say whether it's supporting international terrorism because no one has ever investigated the possibility.

I have every sympathy with the victims of these crimes and the authorities ignore them at their peril as the criminals appear much better organised than they are. I think that even the criminals are surprised at how few checks and barriers exist to foil their activities.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

I've just contacted one scammer and I've noticed something that I believe indicates how the criminal gang are using the logins they phish from Autotrader UK car dealers.

If I'm correct then it does suggest that there are some serious weaknesses in the system that the criminal is exploiting.

If I appear to have OCD (an obsessive compulsive disorder) the fact is that this isn't some spotty brainless moron working on his own, it's a well organised criminal gang that will pillage any system that isn't robust and has weaknesses and exploits. I can only uncover what they're doing by relentlessly observing their activities and examining what they're doing. I suspected that they were using dealer logins in multiple ways and I finally appear to have evidence of this.

The potential implications are quite serious.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle / Car Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

In simple terms it looks as if compromised dealer log in details are being used in three waves, with each wave having an increased likelihood that the criminal may be locked out of the account, though from what I've seen they are only likely to get locked out once the dealer pages are compromised giving the fraudster at least 24 hours to fill the site with their fake adverts, and the next day they start gain.

It'll be interesting to see if I am able to predict what accounts have been compromised from apparently 'clean' adverts posted during the day. If I'm correct then it means that there are even more fraudulent adverts than I had imagined.