Ebay, Gumtree & Autotrader Vehicle / Car Scams

[Paull]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Yeah I've heard about this scam going round.. but what can you really do about it?

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

As long as this situation persists Paull

FCA Chief Executive Martin Wheatley said that organised crime nets between 20 and 30 billion pounds a year in Britain from illegal drugs, with 10 billion pounds "filtered, cleaned and rebottled" through banks, accountants and lawyers.

.. not a lot.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

This scam is incredibly well organised.

The original gang appear to have dispersed, for the time being anyway, and a new group have taken their place. The format is exactly the same and, considering they use relatively sophisticated computer skills, there is obviously an organisation behind them running things. I was offered a bank account in the Czech Republic, presumably in an attempt to lessen the likelihood of having it closed down, though these people clearly reach far with lots of connections. It can be hoped that using foreign bank accounts will make the scam less effective.

This isn't a scam that will ever go away and the different gangs who are employed can be cycled on a regular basis to make it more difficult to trace those behind it. To believe that this is being operated by lone scammers would be a mistake.

[lspeakman]

Re: Barclays and vehicle scam via ebay and gumtree

It would be a mistake to assume that you have been dealing with a real company, or the real company if one by that name exists lspeakman. It's very easy to set up a website impersonating another company and you can waste a lot of time 'chasing your tail' if you make too many assumptions. There are an overwhelming number of scam items being offered for sale on all ad sites and there is one main group targeting them all, though they aren't alone and typically they dispose of the stolen funds through the accounts of professional money mules, there being very few innocent dupes, contrary to popular belief. It's also easy to dispose of funds by appearing to have a bank account in the name of the company being impersonated, when it is just an ordinary personal account.

The only way that the authorities can deal with the current plague of fraud is by shutting down 'money mule' accounts immediately they become apparent, which is supposed to be what they do, but evidently is not. Considering that most of these accounts are opened against fake ID's, they should never be opened in the first place, and those opening them have no reason or justification to hold the accounts other than to perpetrate fraud. It's not rocket science.

The majority of those opening multiple accounts are in the UK on short trips and have no purpose or valid reason for opening accounts as they cannot perform work and have only the funds supplied by their 'herders'. The bank accounts themselves have become a commodity to be bought and sold between fraudsters as a money making enterprise. Considering that all the money, amounting to millions of pounds is being transferred straight out of the country, it's an enterprise that the authorities should be much more active in shutting down.

Hi...do you have any ideas/suggestions about tracking down where the email originated from ...???
Thinking of going to BBC/Watchdog/ etc etc any suggestions anybody??

[Rod Jones]

Re: Barclays and vehicle scam via ebay and gumtree

Email headers can sometimes help. Depending on your email client, copying and pasting mail headers can be two or three clicks (most clients) or half a page of instructions (Outlook).

[puddle55]

Re: Barclays and vehicle scam via ebay and gumtree

Hi...do you have any ideas/suggestions about tracking down where the email originated from ...???
Thinking of going to BBC/Watchdog/ etc etc any suggestions anybody??

Have you tried reporting it to your MP. We have and he has been very helpful. At least he has managed to get a response from ebay.

[Boycie]

Re: Barclays and vehicle scam via ebay and gumtree

I don't have all the answers lspeakman but there are two issues - identifying the groups and members operating the scam and identifying the person who scammed you specifically. Frustratingly it's significant because you must be able to evidence the connection between the person and the scam that caused you to lose money, and, without the sort of powers that only government bodies possess, you won't be able to do this.

The adage that you should follow the money is broken by the way these scammers operate and intentionally so. They put in much effort to recruit dupes as 'money mules' but personally I suspect that most are professionals who open bank accounts using fake ID's. They are much more adaptable and co-operative than dupes, but having a number of dupes is useful to muddle and confuse the issues, and it makes the banks more wary about shutting accounts. Of course there is also no evidence of any connection between the receiving bank account and the original scam mail, which would necessitate the police taking down the whole scam gang and unravelling the workings of the whole group - the members and their mules, which might be possible from their computers and phones, but it would be a complex task.

Recently I did manage to identify a scammer who cost one victim money because the scammer was very sloppy. The evidence wouldn't be any use in court but it's the first time I've ever managed to identify a scammer and connect him with a victim and I offered to pass the information on to the policeman handling the victim's case if he gave me his contact details, and I said that I would also explain how I made the connection. The victim never got back to me.

The scammers have already demonstrated that their ambitions are much greater than just plundering ad sites and allowing them a fertile refuge in which to operate in the UK is inviting disaster, as much as I concede that combatting their activities is very difficult. If nothing can be done then people ought to be made much more aware of what these people are doing, and what they're capable of. If there are concerns about the effect it could have, nothing has greater impact than losing £5,000 and, as it happens to more and more people, the public may lose confidence in those things they believed they could rely on - the authorities, the banks and the police for three.

[Rod Jones]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23495121

UK 'losing fight' against internet crime, warn MPs

[Inca]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

We're off to see a vehicle later for my son.me,OH and brother-in-law...It's on ebay at a really good price.
Reasons 3 of us are going??:-

Me........................cos I like the colour

OH.......................knows his way round a vehicle (points to look out for)

BIL.......................fully trained mechanic,11 years with RAC and can spot a problem instantly

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

A very interesting and useful link in your post Rod Jones.

I would point out that there is a form on that BBC link asking people to relate their experiences of fraud and I would encourage people to use it. Another forum on which I am involved shows an increasing trend in this type of fraud and alarmingly the UK is becoming the base for fraud being performed around the world.

The reason that the UK is so attractive to fraudsters is that there is a multi-level failure within banking and law enforcement that actually protects the fraudster from prosecution. The system isn't intended to do this but this is the reality, and even a bank account opened against fake ID is fiendishly difficult to shut down. Hundreds of these bank accounts have been opened and there is no way of knowing how many exist waiting the next major fraud attack, as the organisation behind the scammers are all the while looking for the most lucrative means to utilise these fake accounts.

Only lately have I learned that Ebay accounts are bought and sold in the criminal world as a valuable commodity and tool for fraud and I would imagine that bank accounts are dealt with in the same way. The police and banks rarely even bother to investigate complaints and victims have no method of even knowing who scammed them and banks face no risk of regulatory sanction whatsoever. If banks were losing money their attitude would be entirely different.

This attitude is not only short-sighted, but it is also incredibly risky (characteristics that UK have previously demonstrated) because giving fraudsters access to the banking system doesn't make you invulnerable to them, and they'll not hesitate to scam banks when it is lucrative and allowing this to happen degrades the whole UK banking system and online commerce, because all this money is taken out of the UK system and paid abroad.

It is fundamentally irresponsible and demonstrates a continuing failure by government to regulate the banking system and protect the electorate from predators whose only purpose is to perform financial attacks against UK citizens and businesses.

[gbsolway]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Can you be sure that Barclays were informed on 11th May. I tried to inform them on 16th May.

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

The consumers who are victims of this fraud are also known by another name - the electorate.

More surprisingly the other victims are the businesses who would otherwise get the money being lost to them, and the economy as the funds are laundered abroad.

Vast investment in complex police resources aren't the answer, merely more strict implementation of current legislation to shut down the accounts used in money laundering.

The legislation and enforcement process exists already. For reasons it is impossible fathom there is no will to do the one simple thing that will stop the fraud - shut down the money mule accounts.

There are a number of myths proliferated by banks and the police, which are

1. Most money launderers are innocent dupes - not so, and the number of bank accounts set up against fake ID's makes such a suggestion palpably ridiculous. In Romania professional 'money mules' go by a name which translates in English to 'arrows' and this isn't a secret.

2. Money launderers will be prosecuted - it is not very common or great a risk due to reason 1 which logically makes it difficult to prosecute someone who doesn't exist, and the Proceeds of Crime Act which requires it to be evidenced that the accused was aware of the criminal nature of what he was doing.

I have seen evidence that local crime gangs are becoming involved, presumably because the system is so lax and the profits to be made so immense. Uncontrolled - and that's how the current situation may be described, this level of fraud within UK banking and online business will change the economy significantly.

[Rod Jones]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

Can you be sure that Barclays were informed on 11th May. I tried to inform them on 16th May.

Take a look at the replies under https://www.facebook.com/BarclaysUK/posts/570223169679221

[Boycie]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

It's no secret that a lot of this fraud on ad sites using money mule accounts has been organised and run by Romanian gangs but worryingly it now appears to be spreading. They tend to stick to their own racial groupings as they rely on trust (ironically) in handling the phone calls and disposal of the money. With some more research it'll be interesting to discover whether or not they are using the Romanian bank accounts, or perhaps setting up their own.

It always was my concern that the utter laxity of the UK banking system would merely encourage the fraud to proliferate and this is what appears to be happening.

I hope someone somewhere understands the potential damage this will do before it gets completely out of hand because these people have barely explored the potential. I won't give any hints of what they could do, but with the tools and tactics they already have, it won't take them long to undermine trust in many things most consumers take for granted. It's not just consumers who treat a bank account as a form of ID, many companies and government departments do too, and that is a concern.

This article had me puzzled

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-8737343.html

Banks must be forced to report every case of fraud amid concerns of a “black hole” of unseen illegal activity where cyber-criminals act with impunity, MPs have warned.

If anyone in banking believes they have a dispensation with regard to the reporting of fraud, this might be where UK money laundering legislation is failing.

The article goes to suggest that MP's believe that this might be occurring because banks are reimbursing victims themselves. I'm marginally less bewildered than MP's appear to be.

[WeWalkInCircles]

Re: Ebay & Gumtree Vehicle Scam. Barclays provide Fraudsters Accounts

I have been reading this thread with interest as I too have recently been the victim of an internet scam. Slightly different circumstances but there are some interesting similarities! Such as the money ending up in a Barclays account 23901394 sort code 20-52-74. Another one for your list I think Rod Jones - I believe the sort code falls into the same area of London (By the way can I thank you for your sterling work.) The money was the final payment for a villa rental (advertised through Owners Direct), a legitimate transaction but the owner's email had been hacked in to and the fraudster intercepted certain emails which included changing the owner's bank account details! I am pursuing the issue with Halifax/Lloyds which brings me to a point well-made earlier in this thread by Boycie. When I complete an online bank transfer the bank requests only 3 pieces of account information, the first being the name of the recipient, then sort code and account number. I was not aware the first piece of information is completely ignored, certainly there is nothing on the screen which tells me this! Indeed on the payment successful page the bank tells me very clearly that I have paid my named recipient and the name is given first in a much larger font and highlighting colour, whereas the bank account number and sort code are in much smaller font and black. My bank is now telling me the recipient's name is for information purposes only but why then do they include a separate field specifically for reference purposes or more importantly why ask for it in the first place? It certainly gave me the reassurance my money was being paid to the right person. My bank is also trying to hide behind the DPA. I believe this has no relevance as I am not asking them to divulge any personal information! My point is that if the name had been checked against the other 2 pieces of account information before payment was authorised there would have been a mismatch and the fraud could not have worked. If the bank chooses not to use the first of only 3 pieces of account information requested why should the risk of them doing so fall to me? By ignoring the payee's name the bank enabled the success of the fraud. Fraudsters are clearly exploiting the anonymity the system is giving them and as long as the loss continues to be borne by the customer the banks have no incentive to make what is probably a relatively straightforward change to the banking system.