Voluntary Termination (Mini)

[elliot174]

Hi Guys [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION]

I am looking at some advice on VT'ing my current car

I have a Mini which is on a PCP deal as to which mini have agreed i am past the 50% mark so there would be no cost other than Excess mileage?

The deal included 8k per annum but to date the car is roughly over 20k miles over the agreement, is this chargeable?

I have made sure my car is in perfect condition with no scratches or dents

They have sent me some info over regarding how i go about VT'ing the vehicle and what info i need to send over and in this info was the following

"Excess mileage (Select Agreements only):
Your maximum total mileage is stated on your agreement. This will be pro-rated to the date we accept your request to voluntarily terminate the agreement. If you have exceeded your pro-rated mileage, we will send you an invoice for the excess mileage charge due."

Is this the case?

I was going to use one of your template letters to start the process

I look forward to your reply & help with this matter as i am getting uncomfortable with the thought of the situation

Many Thanks

Elliot

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi Elliot,

I would say that if you purchased as a consumer then they cannot charge you the excess mileage as you are protected under s.99/100 of the consumer credit act. It's a contractual term and does not form part of the total amount payable but is a breach of contract so damages would apply in the normal circumstances. However, s.100 limits your liability to 50% of the total amount payable (if you have paid over 50% you cannot reclaim this back). If you fulfilled the agreement to the end then you would be liable as it is part of the contractual terms but under s.99/100 for these purposes, it is unenforceable.

They will say you owe the money but you are protected from doing so. Any attempt to reflect the outstanding amount on your credit file is a breach of data protection of recording inaccurate date (principle 4) so keep an eye on that too.

I would also suggest that you do not sign any of their paperwork of theirs as they generally acknowledge you are willing to pay any damages.

Excess mileage is a game of tennis, it will be batted back and forwards Mini in this case are unlikely to back down and threaten legal proceedings against your and/or a default on your credit file until you back down and agree to pay up. So before you start sending letters to them I thought you ought to be aware of what to expect. If you are happy to proceed and willing to go as far as court, then I can assist you. That said, I've yet to find anyone who has been successfully taken to court on this specific point but the law is pretty clear on this I think and finance companies use it to their advantage.

[elliot174]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi Rob,

Thank you for your reply,

Sounds like i'm in for a fun ride then!

If i fill out the letter template created by yourselves and have this sent by recorded post, Can i then cancel the DD or do i need to wait to be contacted? My next payment is 25/08 so i am looking at VT'ing before this payment becomes due,

The excess mileage charge according to Mini is currently £700, Am i right in saying even if i am only £1 over the 50% there is still no mileage charge or do i need to be £700 past the 50% mark?

Cheers

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

50% mark is the total amount payable including any option to purchase and interest so if the total amount payable is £10k, you only need to pay £5k to reach that mark. The excess mileage is a contractual term, and does not form part of the total amount payable.

I would say only cancel your DD after you have received confirmation that the letter has been signed for usually a couple of days after posting.

The only potential problem I can foresee is that you have already handed this information over to them before termination they could possibly argue it has accrued prior to termination and therefore you would be liable but you could counter that argument by saying the invoice only came after termination so is not enforceable.

Not sure what letter you are on about as there is a number floating about but you could use the sample one I did here http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ry-Termination

you need to fire the letter off as soon as possible before your payment date.

[elliot174]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Okay i will get the letter filled in and get it sent off recorded/signed for

Regarding the mileage potential issue, i didn't give them my mileage i just asked a rough cost of over by 20k miles?

My only worry here is i don't seem to see many success stories, people seem to cave and pay. Is this process that brutal? I find it really confusing as to how Mini can put on there standard letters that this would be owed if it isn't by law?

I will show you my draft upon completion just for a check if that's okay?

Thank You

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

No there do not seem to be many which could be a number of reasons:

(1) the matter has gone away

(2) people cave in at the thought of going to court and is a scary process and having to argue when they don't have the knowledge

(3) threats of credit file being affected or debt collectors

(4) some other reason

This doesn't just apply to excess mileage charges but also repair costs, most of the time they don't repair the car and sell it off at auction as it is. There is little known court cases on this and alot of consumer's don't realise what their rights are under the consumer credit act and finance companies exploit this.

Technically, its a misrepresentation of the law (fraudulent perhaps or at least reckless) but until there is authority in the court which confirms this position then they will argue that it is allowable because its in your contract, it's only when you delve into the legislation do you realise that it is not, and how many consumers do you think will do that?!

The process is not that brutal at all, I think many people will talk the talk but when it comes to the nitty gritty, they crumble and want to pay up. Obviously that is their choice and at the end of the day I can only offer what I think, the decision of what to do is still in the hands of that person. I don't think I've seen posts about Mini on hire purchase so I don't know what to expect but the people you are talking to having probably been trained to recover any excess mileage and state its within the contract and that's that - they won't have had any legal training so it might come to a stalemate, or they may pass onto debt collectors or threaten to mark your file with a default. It goes round in circles and with enough pressure, they know people will eventually pay up, that's worth the risk to them.

Happy to look it over before you send.

[elliot174]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi Rob,

I have just been reading over my agreement with them to see what the T&C's state about termination

Under Termination it states

"You can terminate this agreement at any time before your final payment falls due by giving us written notice. You will have to return the vehicle and pay (i) any arrears and any other sums which have become payable under the agreement before the termination (including any excess mileage charge), Plus (ii) the amount (if any) by which one-half of the total amount payable exceeds the aggregate of the advance payment and repayments you have paid, plus (iii) if you do not return the vehicle in god repair and condition, the sum required to compensate us for this. This will be your maximum liability if you comply with these requirments."

But then under a section called

Termination: Your Rights it states

"You have a right to end this agreement. To do so, you should write to the person you make your payments to. They will then be entitled to the return of the goods and to half the total amount payable under this agreement, that is £13,901.99 . If you have already paid at least this amount plus any overdue installments and have taken reasonable care of the goods, you will not have to pay any more. "

Don't these two statements contradict each other or is there case stating excess mileage comes under reasonable care of the goods?

My current only worries lie with the fact i am currently in the mix of looking at buying a house and i wouldn't won't anything to complicate this matter as i am a first time buyer

Cheers for your help with this matter, now & in the future!

Elliot

[elliot174]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Having had a good read on Financial Ombudsman it seems that every VT with excess mileage was not upheld stating that the charges are acceptable?

Cheers

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

It is inconsistent with what the legislation states about your maximum liability. The second statement is a statement that is required by law under Schedule 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 2010, which sets out what needs to be included in the agreement (see image below).



What that means is that as part of the prescribed terms under a HP agreement, finance companies must provide that statement to customers or they will be in breach. As you can see the statement is set out in accordance with section 100 which is your maximum liability e.g. no more than 50% of the total amount payable and any outstanding monthly arrears at the time.

The first statement I am presuming is somewhere within the main terms and conditions which is ambiguous and not consistent with your rights under the CCA and the reason its there is because they cannot amend the second statement as it has to be word for word as set out in the regulations. Anyway in the legal world we call that contra proferentem which is a rule that means whenever a clause is ambiguous or conflicting, it will be construed against the person who drafted it.

The only thing you have to be slightly worried about is if they decide to issue a default on your credit file as that will affect you obtaining a mortgage. If it is their intention to go down that route you could pre-empt that and put them on notice that you are in the process of purchasing a house and your credit file needs to be accurately updated so once they receive the termination letter it should be updated within a reasonable time such as 14 days. If they then default you after that then you have every right to bring a claim for damages for breach of data protection and as they were already on notice about your current intentions but decided to ignore that matter anyway, you could seek exemplary damages (the court awards damages to make an example) although they are rarely given.

Rather than trying to work out what Mini might do, its probably best taking one step at a time and make sure to take plenty of photos before handover.

[DJ-1988]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

[MENTION=89519]elliot174[/MENTION],

I am currently going through the process myself with batting off excess mileage charges. Just to give you an idea of timescales, I VT'd my vehicle last August and it is still ongoing.

I have had my latest correspondence off them today, offering for me to only pay 80% rather than 100% of the excess mileage, despite the fact that the last letter I sent them (several months ago) stated for them to only contact me again to issue court proceedings. Since my last letter to them, I have had numerous letters still demanding payment. If they were that confident that we were in the wrong in our interpretation of the CCA, why haven't they issued court proceedings yet and instead continue to waste everyone's time?

I am quite happy to go to court if it comes to it, as I know Rob will be more than willing to offer advice as he always is. If they do take me to court I plan on documenting the result on here so at least there is a precedent then. I think the main worry for a lot of people in this situation is they haven't got much to benchmark a probability of success as I haven't heard of anyone going to court over this. I am fairly confident after listening to Rob's expertise that it won't get that far anyway.

Don't worry about the ombudsman results, they are just ruling on what seems 'fair' rather than what the contract states.

If you are worried about your credit score, sign up to noddle and clearscore and keep an eye on them for any suspicious flags.

Cheers,

DJ-1988

[elliot174]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi DJ1988

Blimey, that is a long time! Has the process been constant back and forward letters? Or does it just feel dragged out over a long period?

I am 100% going to follow the no payment for excess mileage but my only worry in the back of my mind is I am currently trying to buy our first house with my Fiance and the last thing i would want to mess anything up is a bill of £700 for my mileage.

So the ombudsman result isn't final then? It is then up to ourselves to pursue whichever we feel right?

I am currently signed up to credit expert, which i cancel then sign up again every 3 months to keep track as we are currently trying our best to make sure our score is up there.

I sent my letter a few days ago so i am currently awaiting a phone call / letter

I will update once i have,

Let me know how you get on as well DJ-1988

Thank You

Elliot

[RobS]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hello, I am looking for some advice.

My circumstances have changed and I want to do a VT on my Mini.

We can't afford to keep it and have been waiting for vt time.

I hit the 50% repayment mark and am ready to.

My car has some issues and I am looking for advice on whether to put it right first or to wait for a bill and take it from there.

I have seen seen this resource on the internet and would be happy to pay these kind of prices.
https://www.mini.co.uk/content/dam/M..._No%20Crop.pdf

What is wrong with my car:
It's due a service in 340 miles and the light is on for this.
- if I return before it's due that's ok isn't it?

I have lost one key.
- I don't mind paying for this - it's my fault

I have used the wheel inflation kit.
- can I just leave in the Argos kit I bought for £30 or will it have to be the £150 mini branded version?

Reading what Mini have sent me these things stand in my way of simply handing back the car.

Apart from this it's fine. And I am under the mileage by 10,000 miles (we got the car for my wife to take to work - and she got a different job much closer to home, and then we had baby a she's now a stay at home mum. Hence we are now ... skint).

I'm a bit reticent on speaking to the dealership because I understand they don't want me to VT.

any advice on this - even a pointer to another thread - would be super.

[RobS]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Update -
I didn't use their documentation.
I emailed the legal beagles template.
They have received it and accepted it.
I told them about the key - they have said they wouldn't normally charge for that and they've made a note.
I plan on not signing any paperwork when they collect the car and negotiating after that.
I will update on the next steps etc. As I feel it may be useful for others. I'll also post in copies of letters if that's acceptable. If this isn't the place for this sort of stuff can a mod let me know?
cheers.

[xs2man]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi DJ1988

Blimey, that is a long time! Has the process been constant back and forward letters? Or does it just feel dragged out over a long period?

I am 100% going to follow the no payment for excess mileage but my only worry in the back of my mind is I am currently trying to buy our first house with my Fiance and the last thing i would want to mess anything up is a bill of £700 for my mileage.

So the ombudsman result isn't final then? It is then up to ourselves to pursue whichever we feel right?

I am currently signed up to credit expert, which i cancel then sign up again every 3 months to keep track as we are currently trying our best to make sure our score is up there.

I sent my letter a few days ago so i am currently awaiting a phone call / letter

I will update once i have,

Let me know how you get on as well DJ-1988

Thank You

Elliot

My VT was back in August too, and I still haven't seen the end yet. I am currently at a stalemate with BMW FS regarding mine. I have appointed a solicitor to deal with my case, but I have been pretty lax about contacting him of late. He sent a letter to BMW's solicitors, to which they still refused to back down. The next course of action is court. And it looks like it will have to be me who brings the action there.

I was over by around 16,000 miles or so, and with a bill of £1800. My credit file has a marker against it, and my credit score has been trashed as a result. If you are looking into getting a mortgage soon, then either do it quick, or consider the £700 excess mileage charge the cost of going over your agreed mileage and pay up. The £700 bill itself wont hurt your credit rating, but not paying it might. So either move quickly in locking in your mortgage, or you might be better to pay it to get on the housing ladder. There is no way I'd get a mortgage just now as a result of the actions of BMW FS, I can't even get a new credit card. Luckily I already have my mortgage in place, but one of my credit cards has reduced the limit so severely that it is almost no longer worth keeping.

These things will take a while. Unless you opt to take them to court, straight off the bat. But that might be premature until they have at least marked against your credit file.

[RobS]

Re: Voluntary Termination (Mini)

Hi there,

I said I would provide an update and here it is:

I used the legal beagles documentation.
I found my key.
I gave the car a good clean.
I bought a 3rd party tyre inflation kit off amazon.

They inspected the the car which was under the agreed mileage limit.
There was a chip in the windscreen.
There were two dents - one I thought was going to be expensive as it was also a scratch that you could see through the paint.
It was due a service and the service light was on.
It needed an MOT doing within 8 days.

The inspector came and surveyed the vehichle. They used a digital device to measure and calculate the cost of the damage and they gave us an estimate at that point.

The estimate was very reasonable. About £60 for the damage. The windscreen they said was only a chip and therefore fair wear and tear.

We didn't sign to agree the damage but did sign for their receipt of the vehicle and said there may be some dispute especially as it was not clear what mini would say about the service not yet completed.

They drove the car away.

Now, maybe its because I never missed a payment. Maybe, it's because the car was almost 10,000 miles under the allowance. Maybe, it's because I followed the guidance on here and they realised I was prepared to dispute...

This morning we got a letter from Mini finance saying there would be no charge and thank you for my business.

I wanted to to put this journey on for others to read. My lesson learnt is. Prepare for the worst. But don't panic too much.

Good look to everyone else.