VT and balloon payments

[Lynne]

Please can you help me with my query re my VT. I have followed the procedure and the finance company have just phoned to make VT arrangements. They say that the 50% rule is calculated including the optional balloon payment which allows me at the end of the three years to keep the car if I pay it. Is this correct? My understanding is that I have not borrowed this money as, if I hand the car back at the end, I would have no further payment to make. Therefore, my understanding is that this is not part of our contract. My contract is for the payments over the three years. I am past the half way point of this, therefore, my understanding is if I VT I've nothing further to pay. Can you confirm or otherwise for me? How can i VT if they then want money I don't have? Thank you in advance

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

A PCP I believe, is similar to a Hire Purchase so they cannot include it. If you have a copy of the contract you are able to upload I can take a look at it for you - you can send it to admin@legalbeagles and @Kati will pick it up when she can.

In the meantime there should be something in your pre-contract information or in the contract itself which talks about termination. It should say something like provided you have paid £XXXX.XX then you can terminate the agreement without further charge. As they seem to have acknowledged the balloon payment is optional. You are not obliged to pay the optional balloon payment as the agreement is essentially hire agreement of the vehicle with the option to purchase (being the balloon payment).

I would need to see the contract to verify but that's the stance I would take on it.

Who is the lease company? Perhaps it is worth taking a look at the link in my signature below if you have not seen it already, it should answer most of your questions.

[Kati]

Re: VT and balloon payments

you can send it to admin@legalbeagles and @Kati will pick it up when she can.

I would pick it up from kati@legalbeagles.info (Ame's got the admin address)

but yes ... if [MENTION=86352]Lynne[/MENTION] was to send a copy of the contract to me (with a link to this thread) I would happily redact and post it up xx

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Thanks. Your response has reminded me that, when I first got the car, I spent months chasing them for a copy of my contract. To date, they have still been unable to provide me with one. I think it is something the salesman forgot to get me to sign. This may work in my favour now? I did ask on the phone this morning for them to send me a copy of the agreement which states what I would have to pay. I'm pretty sure, now I think of it, that he won't find one, as there isn't one! I will send anything I receive to you. I have an order form, a copy of the declaration about tax and same for insurance, all signed at start of agreement. That's all that was ever signed plus dd mandate. It's RCI finance aka Dacia's own finance house. Does that help? Thanks for prompt response.

[Amethyst]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Under s.61A they must give you a copy of the agreement at the time (either the unexecuted one if identical to the one you signed - or the one you signed) - else it is not properly executed.

Send a formal CCA request. http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...y-of-Agreement

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I would pick it up from kati@legalbeagles.info (Ame's got the admin address)

but yes ... if [MENTION=86352]Lynne[/MENTION] was to send a copy of the contract to me (with a link to this thread) I would happily redact and post it up xx

I have tried to email Kati [MENTION=57437]ADD[/MENTION]ress posted but it bounced back. [MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION] they never gave me a contract, which is why I don't have any paperwork with the amount on they suggest I should pay before I can end the agreement. I agree with you that as the balloon payment is optional at the end, they cannot use it for the calculation but they think they can. Im waiting on another phone call, that isn't forthcoming and I have no number for them. What should I do next please?

[Kati]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I have tried to email Kati @ADDress posted but it bounced back. @rob they never gave me a contract, which is why I don't have any paperwork with the amount on they suggest I should pay before I can end the agreement. I agree with you that as the balloon payment is optional at the end, they cannot use it for the calculation but they think they can. Im waiting on another phone call, that isn't forthcoming and I have no number for them. What should I do next please?

not sure why :noidea: (it works OK when I send an email from my personal email addy) [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] .... are LB emails working for you??

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I have tried to email Kati @ADDress posted but it bounced back. @rob they never gave me a contract, which is why I don't have any paperwork with the amount on they suggest I should pay before I can end the agreement. I agree with you that as the balloon payment is optional at the end, they cannot use it for the calculation but they think they can. Im waiting on another phone call, that isn't forthcoming and I have no number for them. What should I do next please?

Hi Lynne, I would ask them for a copy of the agreement asap. It is likely that the PCP agreement does not require you to pay the balloon payment. You could of course cancel your DD to prevent any further payments being made and make a complaint to the Ombudsman. As Amethyst has also pointed out if they have not supplied you with the relevant contractual information then they are in breach of the Consumer Credit Act.

A PCP is similar to a HP but the main difference being is the lower monthly instalments but a much higher payment at the end if you wish to purchase - you are not obliged to purchase is the key thing to remember. I suspect they are just trying to scare you and also gain further monies which, a letter I think to them pointing this out so that you have it in writing and it is up to them to provide the evidence to the contrary.

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Hi Lynne, I would ask them for a copy of the agreement asap. It is likely that the PCP agreement does not require you to pay the balloon payment. You could of course cancel your DD to prevent any further payments being made and make a complaint to the Ombudsman. As Amethyst has also pointed out if they have not supplied you with the relevant contractual information then they are in breach of the Consumer Credit Act.

A PCP is similar to a HP but the main difference being is the lower monthly instalments but a much higher payment at the end if you wish to purchase - you are not obliged to purchase is the key thing to remember. I suspect they are just trying to scare you and also gain further monies which, a letter I think to them pointing this out so that you have it in writing and it is up to them to provide the evidence to the contrary.

So, thanks so far #ROb [MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION]. I can't get an email through. Where we are at....they are blocking any attempt at me returning the car. They are adamant the balloon payment has to be paid. I am continuing to point out my contract is for the three year lease and the balloon payment is optional and non obligatory. I pointed out they never actually gave me a copy of the contract but they say they did and will post a copy out to me. Im still waiting. I have pointed out that their calculation would mean I pay almost as much to exit the agreement as to stay in it, which is unequitable as why would anyone be expected to pay as much to have nothing as to keep the car and at least have something to show for their money! The direct debit has been cancelled and the ombudsman informed. I sent a registered letter yesterday informing them of where and when the car will be delivered back. I will of course take pictures with a newspaper included on the morning of the return. Any thoughts/advice/guidance please? Thanks

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

The only thing different I would have done was probably not cancel the DD until you received the PCP agreement to confirm your position exactly as if you have made a mistake then that will give them a right to pursue the monies owed as a lump sum.

A PCP does have lower monthly payments usually than a HP but the balloon payment at the end (which is the optional part) is higher than a HP agreement which is where the differences are. Although sometimes you could end up paying close to the full term of the agreement on a PCP than a HP but your agreement should verify this.

I know you have sent a request already, but you should send a formal request as per Amethyst's link in the above post - http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...y-of-Agreement

If the balloon amount is the amount left over to own the vehicle then they cannot charge for this - you could also argue unfair/aggressive trading practices under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regs 2008.

So where exactly are you going to be returning the car?

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I have said I will take it back to the garage I got it from. I cancelled the DD as the next one is not due until the end of the month and I thought the car would have been returned yesterday at the latest, as that was my 14 days as per my initial notice. I have found them to be bullying and aggressive in their tactics. Should I not return the car? [MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION] #ROb

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I have said I will take it back to the garage I got it from. I cancelled the DD as the next one is not due until the end of the month and I thought the car would have been returned yesterday at the latest, as that was my 14 days as per my initial notice. I have found them to be bullying and aggressive in their tactics. Should I not return the car? [MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION] #ROb

Also, we are moving away at the end of the month, which is why i tried to get this resolved properly. I do not want this following me. I won't be contactable initially after the move.

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I would advise against returning the car to the garage as it is not the garage's responsibility. The ownership of the car is now RCI's so they may not accept it there and you are still under a duty to ensure the car is maintained until it is collected. If you do not and there is damage to it then you could be liable for that.

There's a couple of options you could do right now

1. If you have a drive, you could leave the car on there if possible and cancel the DD and then inform the DVLA that RCI are now the registered keeper (this can be done online) give RCI a further 7 days to comply by writing to them. You could also charge them a reasonable £5/10 per day until collection - if not collected within 30 days then you could consider making a claim against them in court for aggressive practices and the costs of storage plus compensation for stress and inconvenience under CPUT.

2. If you don't have a driveway then you could potentially leave it on a public highway, which would be picked up by them and will charge RCI for no tax or insurance provided you have informed the DVLA first and received confirmation (online is probably the fastest way). This would then force RCI into actually having to do something by either taking you to court for the recovery of the amount paid or paying for the recovery of the vehicle. You could then counterclaim that with the arguments in point 1 above.

3. Alternatively, you could make your complaint to the Ombudsman, ride it out and seek to claim your money for any tax/insurance that has been paid since the VT. If the decision goes against you, then you could reject the Ombudsman's decision and opt to go to court for the recovery. For small sums of money usually less than a few hundred quid it might not be worth companies going to court and paying someone which costs more to defend it, they may simply pay you back. Do not take this for granted though and is not always the case, if the company feels they have a strong argument then they will defend it. Its all about commercial viability and whether its worth the hassle and potential damage to reputation.

I must point out, I have been in a similar position to you although it eventually did not go any further and they agreed to collect the car so all of these options are just that and in no way can I guarantee any of them will work but is likely that once legal action is commenced, your then dealing with their lawyers (who might be better to deal with or hopefully smarter than the customer service people you are probably dealing with now).

Before you attempt any of these options I would suggest waiting for the agreement to come to you - did they say it was coming? I believe if you do a formal CCA request they have 12 working days or so to produce the document or the agreement is unenforceable until it has been provided. @Amethyst could answer that one better than me.

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I would advise against returning the car to the garage as it is not the garage's responsibility. The ownership of the car is now RCI's so they may not accept it there and you are still under a duty to ensure the car is maintained until it is collected. If you do not and there is damage to it then you could be liable for that.

There's a couple of options you could do right now

1. If you have a drive, you could leave the car on there if possible and cancel the DD and then inform the DVLA that RCI are now the registered keeper (this can be done online) give RCI a further 7 days to comply by writing to them. You could also charge them a reasonable £5/10 per day until collection - if not collected within 30 days then you could consider making a claim against them in court for aggressive practices and the costs of storage plus compensation for stress and inconvenience under CPUT.

2. If you don't have a driveway then you could potentially leave it on a public highway, which would be picked up by them and will charge RCI for no tax or insurance provided you have informed the DVLA first and received confirmation (online is probably the fastest way). This would then force RCI into actually having to do something by either taking you to court for the recovery of the amount paid or paying for the recovery of the vehicle. You could then counterclaim that with the arguments in point 1 above.

3. Alternatively, you could make your complaint to the Ombudsman, ride it out and seek to claim your money for any tax/insurance that has been paid since the VT. If the decision goes against you, then you could reject the Ombudsman's decision and opt to go to court for the recovery. For small sums of money usually less than a few hundred quid it might not be worth companies going to court and paying someone which costs more to defend it, they may simply pay you back. Do not take this for granted though and is not always the case, if the company feels they have a strong argument then they will defend it. Its all about commercial viability and whether its worth the hassle and potential damage to reputation.

I must point out, I have been in a similar position to you although it eventually did not go any further and they agreed to collect the car so all of these options are just that and in no way can I guarantee any of them will work but is likely that once legal action is commenced, your then dealing with their lawyers (who might be better to deal with or hopefully smarter than the customer service people you are probably dealing with now).

Before you attempt any of these options I would suggest waiting for the agreement to come to you - did they say it was coming? I believe if you do a formal CCA request they have 12 working days or so to produce the document or the agreement is unenforceable until it has been provided. @Amethyst could answer that one better than me.

So, essentially I am looking at this potentially being unresolved when I move at the end of the month? I would then be relying on the new owner of our house allowing us to keep the car in the garage/ on the drive until these people get their finger out? There is not going to be any way then, for me to know that I will get a resolution and I could, in theory end up with a pile of issues to deal with? Im beginning to feel bullied into keeping a car I cannot afford nor have any use for, as I don't want this unresolved by the 22nd at the latest.

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

So, essentially I am looking at this potentially being unresolved when I move at the end of the month? I would then be relying on the new owner of our house allowing us to keep the car in the garage/ on the drive until these people get their finger out? There is not going to be any way then, for me to know that I will get a resolution and I could, in theory end up with a pile of issues to deal with? Im beginning to feel bullied into keeping a car I cannot afford nor have any use for, as I don't want this unresolved by the 22nd at the latest.

is yes, they said on 3rd June contract was coming. They reiterated that last Thursday that it was coming. I don't believe they actually have a copy as I believe the sales I an failed to get me to sign one, and I was not issued with one at the time