Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

[kay1727]

Hi All,

I am new here and was wondering if anyone can help me out.

I purchased a 2nd hand car 3 weeks ago from a dealership. However 2 days later the vehicle failed its MOT test due to emissions and brake pads and disks (metal to metal). I immediately called the garage where I purchased the vehicle from to inform the owner of the faults, however he was not willing to cover any of the costs. From my very limited understanding of the Sales of Goods Act, a dealership cannot sell a vehicle which is unroadworthy and I am entitled to a repair, replacement or full refund.

As the garage was not willing to help me out, I wanted to avoid wasting time and considered getting the brakes, pads and the emissions issue rectified. However, I wanted to ensure there are no other faults hence I took the car in for a diagnostics test and to my surprise the engine was worn, catalytic converter needed replacement, gearbox oil leak, needed a new clutch.

To cut a long story short, the dealer was still not willing to rectify all the faults. I was offered new brake pads and a cat, plus £75 towards labour. I rejected this offer as a new engine on its own would cost around £3000. I eventually rejected the car and requested for my money back however I have not heard from the dealership and it has been over 2 weeks now.

I have initiated a chargeback process through Halifax however I have been advised by Halifax that I need to return the goods and provide proof of postage (a Post Office receipt and tracking number would be sufficient) , I am speechless!

Unfortunately, I cannot return the car as I am unable to drive it and I do not want to have to pay for the car to be transported 160 miles away. I really do not want to go through the small claims process as it will take very long. Do I have a leg to stand on with Halifax?

Your replies would be much appreciated.

[Galahad]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

I'm surprised you bought a car with so little MOT on it? What terms was the car bought on? I know theres a grey area over 'sold as seen' 'trade sale' that the terms are not worth the paper they are printed on, but i'd be interested to know why it is the garage/dealer in question sold you a car that had so little MOT on it, and why you bought it?

What vehicle is it and how old is it please?

[wales01man]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

To be fair to the Halifax until you have a receipt from the dealer for a returned car why should they pay back the money,
strange that the OP buys a car from 160 miles away with a short MOT most dealers offer a new MOT or sell with a fairly long MOT ,
My first thoughts are it was a trade deal and was cheap the OP should have had an independent inspection if this was the case.
How much was the car and how much is the listed price for the car?

[pt2537]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

Hi All,

I am new here and was wondering if anyone can help me out.

I purchased a 2nd hand car 3 weeks ago from a dealership. However 2 days later the vehicle failed its MOT test due to emissions and brake pads and disks (metal to metal). I immediately called the garage where I purchased the vehicle from to inform the owner of the faults, however he was not willing to cover any of the costs. From my very limited understanding of the Sales of Goods Act, a dealership cannot sell a vehicle which is unroadworthy and I am entitled to a repair, replacement or full refund.

As the garage was not willing to help me out, I wanted to avoid wasting time and considered getting the brakes, pads and the emissions issue rectified. However, I wanted to ensure there are no other faults hence I took the car in for a diagnostics test and to my surprise the engine was worn, catalytic converter needed replacement, gearbox oil leak, needed a new clutch.

To cut a long story short, the dealer was still not willing to rectify all the faults. I was offered new brake pads and a cat, plus £75 towards labour. I rejected this offer as a new engine on its own would cost around £3000. I eventually rejected the car and requested for my money back however I have not heard from the dealership and it has been over 2 weeks now.

I have initiated a chargeback process through Halifax however I have been advised by Halifax that I need to return the goods and provide proof of postage (a Post Office receipt and tracking number would be sufficient) , I am speechless!

Unfortunately, I cannot return the car as I am unable to drive it and I do not want to have to pay for the car to be transported 160 miles away. I really do not want to go through the small claims process as it will take very long. Do I have a leg to stand on with Halifax?

Your replies would be much appreciated.

Im battling with Hendy Fords at the minute.

You are covered by the Sale of Goods Act 1979 as amended. The vehicle has to be (in broad terms) fit for purpose, as described, of satisfactory quality taking into account the price paid, so you may be entitled to reject the goods, and demand a refund. you may be able to bring a claim for damages too.

[bluebottle]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

There may be something under the Motor Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations that could be used as leverage to make the dealer take the car back. However, Galahad is in a better position to advise on that.

[kay1727]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

I'm surprised you bought a car with so little MOT on it? What terms was the car bought on? I know theres a grey area over 'sold as seen' 'trade sale' that the terms are not worth the paper they are printed on, but i'd be interested to know why it is the garage/dealer in question sold you a car that had so little MOT on it, and why you bought it?

What vehicle is it and how old is it please?

Hi Galahad, it's a Mazda RX8 on a 05 plate, around 80,000 mileage. It was not brought under trade terms. In hindsight, I should have walked away knowing that the MOT is running out soon but I was advised that the car is in top condition and I stupidly believed it. This dealership claim to be RX8 specialists and I simply trusted them too much, a mistake which I have certainly learned from.

To be fair to the Halifax until you have a receipt from the dealer for a returned car why should they pay back the money,
strange that the OP buys a car from 160 miles away with a short MOT most dealers offer a new MOT or sell with a fairly long MOT ,
My first thoughts are it was a trade deal and was cheap the OP should have had an independent inspection if this was the case.
How much was the car and how much is the listed price for the car?

I purchased the car for £2250, its a Mazda RX8 and they are valued at around £2000-£2500. It certainly is not cheap and it was purchased under normal terms. As I said above, its a mistake I am regretting.

I agree with you, Halifax are certainly being reasonable, however I wanted to know if there is anything in the law which can help me overcome this hurdle.


Thank you for all your replies, much appreciated. I would also like to add that this dealership thinks they have a right to repair the car. As I mentioned in my initial message, they have offered me new brake pads with the cat, plus £75 towards labour. The dealer's last message to me was "I believe the offer of repair was fair and am willing to go to small claims court. As a dealer I have the right to fix the car sold, which I have offered on the dangerous bits".
This cannot be true right, as this means I would be out of pocket.

[wales01man]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

Looking like this may be a stalemate if halifax will refund after car is returned which you can do you will have to get the car back to the deale maybe at your cost,
Others can advise as well you may be able to claim out of pocket expenses back from the dealer by making a written claim on them backed up with legal action in a CCJ application if neccessary, the dealer have already said they were willing to go to a small claims court IMO call there bluff you should have a good chance of a win.
There will be others on here who will help .

[Galahad]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

Motor dealers do have the chance to rectify problems with a car, as to just how much they fix is down to negotiation between yourself and the dealer. However, you've not remotely paid below book value for the car, you've paid a quite reasonable sum of money for the car, and as such, no excuse of 'trade sale' or 'sold on trade terms' comes into it.

Now if you bought the car with a short MOT based on the fact that you felt the dealers assurances were that the car was good, and found it to not be the case, then you've got a very strong case for rejecting the car outright.

Yes a motor dealer does need to be given the opportunity to rectify mistakes with the vehicle, but clearly he has no intention of footing very much of the bill.

Some things to note:

1). As its a RX8, it has the ****el (quiet at the back!) rotary engine, and they suffer from engine wear, the rotor tips wear out, and causes them to use more oil. Were you made aware of the servicing requirements of this car and is there any evidence that the rotor tips have been replaced in its lifetime?

2). The catalytic converter he was going to replace, has he given you a quote for a price for it, or hinted how much its going to cost? Cars after August 2001 have to have OEM spec catalytic converters fitted, no cheap nasty after market rubbish, they have to be of the same grade and quality as the manufacturer would have fitted (you poor HDi Citroen and Peugeot owners!), so i'd be interested to know what he was going to fit.

Whilst its your word against his that the car was sold as good, the diagnostic report you've had done shows absolutely that the car is far beyond acceptable.

You've given him the opportunity to rectify the problems, but you don't have to accept the level of fix he's offered, its not enough. So now, you need to call his bluff and reject the car, its only a few hundred quid off the top level for an RX8 of that age, and it needs quite a bit more than that spending to get it anywhere near that level.

[bluebottle]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

Motor dealers do have the chance to rectify problems with a car, as to just how much they fix is down to negotiation between yourself and the dealer. However, you've not remotely paid below book value for the car, you've paid a quite reasonable sum of money for the car, and as such, no excuse of 'trade sale' or 'sold on trade terms' comes into it.

Now if you bought the car with a short MOT based on the fact that you felt the dealers assurances were that the car was good, and found it to not be the case, then you've got a very strong case for rejecting the car outright.

Yes a motor dealer does need to be given the opportunity to rectify mistakes with the vehicle, but clearly he has no intention of footing very much of the bill.

Some things to note:

1). As its a RX8, it has the ****el (quiet at the back!) rotary engine, and they suffer from engine wear, the rotor tips wear out, and causes them to use more oil. Were you made aware of the servicing requirements of this car and is there any evidence that the rotor tips have been replaced in its lifetime?

2). The catalytic converter he was going to replace, has he given you a quote for a price for it, or hinted how much its going to cost? Cars after August 2001 have to have OEM spec catalytic converters fitted, no cheap nasty after market rubbish, they have to be of the same grade and quality as the manufacturer would have fitted (you poor HDi Citroen and Peugeot owners!), so i'd be interested to know what he was going to fit.

Whilst its your word against his that the car was sold as good, the diagnostic report you've had done shows absolutely that the car is far beyond acceptable.

You've given him the opportunity to rectify the problems, but you don't have to accept the level of fix he's offered, its not enough. So now, you need to call his bluff and reject the car, its only a few hundred quid off the top level for an RX8 of that age, and it needs quite a bit more than that spending to get it anywhere near that level.

I can remember the Norton Interceptor motorcycle having a rotary engine. It was a fantastic machine, especially for police use. Ministry of Defence Police and Norfolk Constabulary were the only forces I am aware of who used the Interceptor. They were replaced by BMWs due to the fault you highlight with the rotor tips. If only Norton had addressed that particular fault, they would have been onto a winner.

[des8]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

If the vehicle was unroadworthy (i.e. if using it would cause danger to the driver, passengers, other road users etc)
the dealer has committed an offence under the RTA 1988 (section 75). If he was prosecuted and found guilty he faces a fine of upto £5000.
A car with brakes as faulty as described is probably unroadworthy and dangerous

Might be worth pointing out to him that you intend reporting this to both Trading Standards and the police (it is a criminal offence) if he doesn't accept your rejection of the car.

I don't know if this info has any bearing on the Halifax's position.

[jasonleah1]

Re: Unroadworthy Vehicle and Visa Debit Chargeback

The garage imo knew about the cars emission issue as it is a very common problem with the RX8, ****el / rotary engines were and still are good engines but only if they have been serviced correctly and not scrimped on, The car in question also uses about a litre of oil every other week as they are known for it unfortunately, even more so when they are worn! They more often than not need an engine rebuild after about 50k miles too because of the dreaded tips wearing out, not a cheap job and a pain to do, (I'm a seasoned mechanic), very pretty cars but you can pick up the very latest models for a couple of thousand on most online auctions, Mazda stopped making the car because it could not meet the stringent emissions with that engine no matter what they did to it! Shame really. What often seems like a lot of car for little money turns out to be a money pit. Every time I am asked about these cars I always tell any prospective buyer to walk away unless it has a very complete comprehensive history or has had an engine rebuild! Get rid of as soon as possible, P.s Good luck with the garage!!