Sale of goods act Re:purchase of a boat

[martyn1457]

hi I hope someone can help I have seen the great advice and decided to post my problem.

I purchased a small speedboat which i saw advertised on ebay. after reading the advert and contacting the seller we agreed a price £200 of which i transfered through paypal as a deposit.

the boat was advertised as ready to be used useing the wording "useable boat jump in and go" I went and collected the boat from the sellers house and saw the engine running on the drive.
the following day we launched the boat and after a short time the engine died and would not start we were at this time in the harbour and needed towing back to the quay. we checked over the engine and found an issue with the battery so a replacement later we went off down the river. 20 minute more and it died again refused to start and another helpful tow from a passing boat.

we managed to get back to the slipway, and get the boat out on to the trailer which then broke!!!
we have since had marine engineer inspect the boat and find there is £620 worth of work needed to get the boat in a safe and useable condition all the work it to the drive shaft area, and most is due to broken seal that have allowed water to ruin the bearings....

i contacted the seller at every step of the way detailing the issues we had he has refused to cover the cost of repair or contribute towards them. I have followed the outline from consumer helplines and sent recorded delivery letters with all the information to the seller. who responded with saying it wasnt his problem.
I have issued a claim through money claim online website, with the details in and followed this up with a copy of the quote from the engineers copies sent to money claim and the seller.

he has now issued a defence which i cant seem to read online i presume it will be sent to me by post.


sorry for the long winded explanation but I wanted to try to cover everything.
questions are
1, what happens next.
2, am I correct with challengin this using the sale of goods act and the fact that it was misdescribed
3, any advice on what to say if and when this ends up infront of a judge/court

thanks in advance for any advice

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Point the seller to the sales of goods act 1976 section 12

12 Implied terms about title, etc.

(1)In a contract of sale, other than one to which subsection (3) below applies, there is an implied [F7term] on the part of the seller that in the case of a sale he has a right to sell the goods, and in the case of an agreement to sell he will have such a right at the time when the property is to pass.
(2)In a contract of sale, other than one to which subsection (3) below applies, there is also an implied [F7term] that—
(a)the goods are free, and will remain free until the time when the property is to pass, from any charge or encumbrance not disclosed or known to the buyer before the contract is made, and
(b)the buyer will enjoy quiet possession of the goods except so far as it may be disturbed by the owner or other person entitled to the benefit of any charge or encumbrance so disclosed or known.
(3)This subsection applies to a contract of sale in the case of which there appears from the contract or is to be inferred from its circumstances an intention that the seller should transfer only such title as he or a third person may have.
(4)In a contract to which subsection (3) above applies there is an implied [F7term] that all charges or encumbrances known to the seller and not known to the buyer have been disclosed to the buyer before the contract is made.
(5)In a contract to which subsection (3) above applies there is also an implied [F7term] that none of the following will disturb the buyer’s quiet possession of the goods, namely—
(a)the seller;
(b)in a case where the parties to the contract intend that the seller should transfer only such title as a third person may have, that person;
(c)anyone claiming through or under the seller or that third person otherwise than under a charge or encumbrance disclosed or known to the buyer before the contract is made.
[F8(5A)As regards England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the term implied by subsection (1) above is a condition and the terms implied by subsections (2), (4) and (5) above are warranties.]
(6)Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 below applies in relation to a contract made before 18 May 1973.

Then also point him to the fraud act 2006 sections 2 and 3:

2Fraud by false representation(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b)intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and
(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a)the person making the representation, or
(b)any other person.
(4)A representation may be express or implied.
(5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

3Fraud by failing to disclose informationA person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

Section 2 of the fraud act applies as he knowing misrepresented the boat as being sea worthy and ready for use, purely to make a financial gain from the sale and as a result to honor his obligations under section 12 of the sales of goods act 1976. Section 3 of the fraud act applies as, he knowingly failed to disclose the mechanical problems in the sales adverts discription, and therefore withheld information in order to make a financial gain at the buyer financial loss/detriment.

Inform the seller, that should he not cover the cost of the repair and marine engineer inline with his legal obilgations under the sale of goods act 1976, then he will be pursude for fraud and reported to the police, not only that but you will seek a civial claim against him for the cost of the Marine Engineer and the repairs. Give him details of such repair costs and the cost of the marine engineer, and make it clear to him that on top of such cost he would also be liable to pay you legal costs too. Give him 14 days to respond and make it clear that you withold the right to commence legal proceedings without further notice. Title the letter "letter before action".

If he then still refuses to cover the costs of repair or offer you a reasonable reimbursement for your loses and so far, then contact the police and seek a solicitor willing to act on your behalf.

[wales01man]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Would the Op be better advised to find out if the seller has the funds to pay any penalties or costs before taking action and maybe they should contact paypal and ebay on the matter a friend of mine sold on ebay and after a few weeks the buyer comlained to ebay and paypal saying the goods were not as described and that they beleive certain stated facts were untrue ebay took the money back from the selers accountuntil the situation was resolved turned out my friend was not at fault and the buyer did not get expert opinion on the goods as he threatned maybe he felt that spending more than the sale price on legal stuff was not worth it if he goes ahead with action i hope he wins to many con artists on ebay we know we lost before

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

You can go through paypal dispute resolution procedures, but you only have 45 days to do so. As the OP did not state how long ago the purchase was made then am inclined to say that it maybe they have pssed the 45 day limit. Hence why the OP hasn't yet opened a dispute by paypal, which he/she would no doubt know that they could have done so via paypal. Also bear in mind it was only a £200 deposit made via paypal, not the total price of the boat which was no doubt later paid on collection of the boat in cash.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Hi http://whatconsumer.co.uk/online-auction-sites/

Your statutory right to quality
One of your statutory rights is that any item you buy from a retailer or manufacturer must be of satisfactory quality. However if you buy from an individual in the context of a private sale, this statutory right does not apply and you will have no legal redress if the item is unsatisfactory. This is a common cause of complaint. E bay offer lots of information on how to shop safely on their site including checking the seller’s feedback ratings, whether the item is covered by PayPal Buyer Protection, and what returns policy is offered. See: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/safetycentre/buying_safely.html In the event that you have received a misdescribed, poor quality or faulty product, or if the item was never sent, report the matter to e-bay who will then take steps to ban that seller from any further trading.

D

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Nothing in the sales of goods act 1979 states that it only applies to business to consumer sales, therefore statutory rights under saisd act still apply. Just like they apply when you buy from a sole trader (also a private seller).

Section 2 of the act is the key:

2 Contract of sale.

(1)A contract of sale of goods is a contract by which the seller transfers or agrees to transfer the property in goods to the buyer for a money consideration, called the price.

(2)There may be a contract of sale between one part owner and another.
(3)A contract of sale may be absolute or conditional.
(4)Where under a contract of sale the property in the goods is transferred from the seller to the buyer the contract is called a sale.
(5)Where under a contract of sale the transfer of the property in the goods is to take place at a future time or subject to some condition later to be fulfilled the contract is called an agreement to sell.
(6)An agreement to sell becomes a sale when the time elapses or the conditions are fulfilled subject to which the property in the goods is to be transferred.

Note how it refers to the seller as seller, it does not refer to them as retailer, manufacturer. When you sell something in private you are still deemed the seller by law. Under section 61 (1) "interpretation" the seller is - “seller” means a person who sells or agrees to sell goods; so any person is deemed a seller whether it be online/offline auction (auctions themselves are covered by the act under section 57) or a friend selling you his old TV.

The Sales of Goods act whole reason for existence is to protect the buyer from rogue sellers and poor merchandise, and to also protect the seller from buyers that refuse to pay after already agreeing to the purchase and taken the goods.

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Section 13 - Sale by description is the section i ment to post earlier in my original post, not section 12:

13 Sale by description.

(1)Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied [F1term] that the goods will correspond with the description.

[F2(1A)As regards England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the term implied by subsection (1) above is a condition.]
(2)If the sale is by sample as well as by description it is not sufficient that the bulk of the goods corresponds with the sample if the goods do not also correspond with the description.
(3)A sale of goods is not prevented from being a sale by description by reason only that, being exposed for sale or hire, they are selected by the buyer.
(4)Paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 below applies in relation to a contract made before 18 May 1973.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Rather than get into an argument about this, i would urge the OP to contact the TS or cab.(or just read the link i provided) They will confirm that there is no implied contract in a sale of this nature and the sale of goods act does not apply.
I is very basic knowledge, the phrase buyer beware and, sold as seen spring to mind. However please don't take my word for it.

D

[wales01man]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

I am no expert but i would take the advice from davyb could save money we all must know dodgy dealers and the fact if they wont at first give a response they never will Buyer Beware is such a right attitude to take

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Rather than get into an argument about this, i would urge the OP to contact the TS or cab.(or just read the link i provided) They will confirm that there is no implied contract in a sale of this nature and the sale of goods act does not apply.
I is very basic knowledge, the phrase buyer beware and, sold as seen spring to mind. However please don't take my word for it.

D

You mean no implied terms such as under section 14 the rest of the act applies such as section 13 "sale by description" hence why i mentioned the fraud act and false representation. Hence why ebay and Paypal refund people who claim "item not as described" - So there is still a contract under the sales of goods act.

My own company operates under the sales of goods act every day so i know when it applies and what applies to who. Theres no argument about it. The OP had no way of knowing about the state of the engine till the boat was in the water.

The OP needs a solicitor here not CAB or TS as TS deal with buisnesses not private sellers and CAB don't have the legal training to deal with such complex matter. off course if the seller is a trader pretending to be a private seller the the fair trading act 1973 can be thrown at them and TS can act.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Hi
I wasn't going to reply to this again , as i feel i have stated all that needs to be said, but i must respond to the remarks about CAB.
The CAB deal with thousands of complaints identical to this every day, they will be able to confirm with absolute authority that this is not a matter for the Sales of Goods act, as it would only apply if the sale was made by a dealer.

By all means contact a solicitor but in the first instance i would urge you to get in touch with one of the free advice agencies.

Last response on this thread

D

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Hi
I wasn't going to reply to this again , as i feel i have stated all that needs to be said, but i must respond to the remarks about CAB.
The CAB deal with thousands of complaints identical to this every day, they will be able to confirm with absolute authority that this is not a matter for the Sales of Goods act, as it would only apply if the sale was made by a dealer.

By all means contact a solicitor but in the first instance i would urge you to get in touch with one of the free advice agencies.

Last response on this thread

D

Your wrong Davyb

The only section that doesn't not apply to private sellers are sections 14 implied terms and section 15 which is also mentioned under subsection 1 of section 14. The rest still applies especially section 12 "sales by description" As section 12 is not an implied term but a condition under the sales contract between seller and buyer.

Consider i operated under the sales of goods act as a limited company since september 2011 and as a sole trader/proprietorship between 2009 and 2011 and before 2009 as a private seller then i think i have a good understanding of what sections apply and what don't. By saying the sales of good acts does not apply at all for private sales, your also saying they buyer has no legal recourse to a refund should the item not be as described. Not only that your also going against what PayPal, ebay and other banks, credit card firms and other auction sites, state about items not being as discribed. They support section 12 hence why they refund buyers who claim the item is not as discribed, its also why some buyers take advantage by wrongly claiming its not as discribed when such product was.

As for CAB, wheres your evidence? You seriously expect me to believe that CAB get involved in disputes between private sellers on regular basis and are an authority on the matter? (by the way how can they be an authority on the matter? They are not a legal firm nor are they a regulator, they are an advisory service, nothing more. You seriously expect me to belive that. Let me tell you something - I have had CAB chase write to me regarding a product that a buyer claimed was faulty, yet testing showed it was not faulty and the damage caused was due to mishandling, e.g. dropped from height after being taken out of the box, as there no way it could have been smashed like that inside the protection of the box, something that was determined by dropping an indentical product still inside its box and then one outside of its box, from the same height. The one in the box had no damage, the one outside had similar damage to the returned item. CAB disputed this and advise the person to make a civil claim. The manufacturer employed a solicitor, as per the contract between us, to act on both there and my companies behalf. We won outright. So no CAB do not have authority in such cases All they do is listen to what the claiment says, give the claiment false hope and poor advise. The cab should stick to advising on what its good at Debts, Benefits, Housing, Family Issues, and similar. They should not get involved it contractual disputes of a complex nature such as disputes under the sales of goods act unless its for minor amounts, and not large amounts where the dispute can be complex, such as the OP case here which involves fraud by the seller too.

The op only paid a deposit via paypal, so the rest would have been paid in cash on collection, the Seller failed to inform the buyer of the fault seals and issues with the boats engine when in the water even though he demostrated the engine running outside of the water, which off course would be fine, since no water was getting into the engine, which the seller would have likely known about from his own usage of the boat and no doubt having similar problems with the seal and water getting into the engine and bearings. The seller also descirbed the boat on the item page as "useable boat jump in and go". To an reasonable person that means its ready to go in the water and in full working order and condition. So such misleading discribtion is contary to section 12 of the sale of goods act.

I suggest Davyb that you read the act in its entirety, as the only section that limited the buyers rights is section 14 implied terms, that specifically states under subsection 2 the following "(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality." No other section of the act refers to the seller as the seller in the course of business, the rest of the sections simply refer to the seller either stating the, as the seller of goods or implying there the seller of goods - No other section specific refers to the seller as the seller of goods in the course of buisness.

Just because that one section refers to the seller as the seller of goods in the course of business, it does not mean the whole act does not apply to private sales, it simply means that that one section does not apply to private sales only. Thats why that one section specifically onlines the seller as seller of goods in course of business and the rest of the act does only refers to the seller as the seller of goods or as just the seller only.


By your reasoning, if the sales of goods act did not apply then the seller could sell junk describing it as brand new time and time again, when the goods are actually only fit for the scrap yard and the poor buyer would have no legal recourse against the seller.

[Celestine]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 is perhaps the most useful and relevant to the problems many consumers face when they make purchases on the High Street, online or by mail order. It is worth knowing about this piece of legislation, in terms of what rights you have and how you can resolve the situation, because not all shops can be relied on to act in an honourable or lawful way.The main focus of the Act is the provision of three statutory rights, although the act goes on to describe exactly what consumers are entitled to if any of these statutory rights are breached.There is some confusion about how the Sale of Goods Act applies to second-hand goods, items purchased on the internet or by mail order, items purchased via a doorstep sale, or anything bought from an online auction or marketplace. This following sections will cover all these situations, and hopefully give you a better understanding of how the law protects you and what you must watch out for.How the Sale of Goods Act applies to:

• Second-hand goods
• Goods sold online or by mail order
• Doorstep sales
• Ebay or other online auctions or marketplaces

Your Statutory Rights

• How do you measure quality?
• It’s not fit for purpose
• How long should it last?
• Is the guarantee worth the paper it’s written on?
• I bought it from a bloke down the pub
• Rights when knowingly buying damaged goods

And if your statutory rights are broken

• They say I’ve taken ownership so it’s my responsibility
• Do shops have to give me my money back?
• The shop doesn’t want to know, they say it is the manufacturer’s responsibility.
• It’s second hand – do I have any rights?
• It was damaged on delivery

Courtesy of Which: http://whatconsumer.co.uk/the-sale-of-goods-act/

[teaboy2]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Thanks celestine.

But sales by description is the relevant point here not implied satutory rights under quality and fitness as per the second hand goods link specific to private sales online. Although the link does in fact prove my point where it states "But what if you buy something which breaks down shortly afterwards leaving you with a massive repair bill. Could you argue that the seller was aware of this fault but said nothing? This may be difficult to prove" which in this case would not be difficult to proof given that it happened almost straight after the boat was in the water which is expected given a broken seal, as it would take a few minutes for enough water to breach the seal for it to cause the engine to stop. Its the same for Car engines when water mixes with the oil due to faulty gaskets/sales etc. The seller would have been aware of this and it could be reasonable argued that they sold the boat as they were aware of the costs involved in repairing the fault, hence why they did not reveal the fault to the buyer upon inspection of the boat or on the sales advert. There is no way the buyer would have known about the seal, being faulty without taking it on the water for a test spin before purchase.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act Reurchase of a boat

Hi
yes thanks, this was the link i provided earlier. from the above regarding second hand none dealer sales:

"Firstly, remember that the statutory entitlement of quality and fitness for purpose only applies when buying from someone who is ‘acting in the course of a business’ i.e a second-hand car dealer. You do not have any legal recourse as regards quality where you are buying through an individual who is selling an item as a one-off private sale (although they must have legal title and it must be as described in the advert)."

D