Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

[Ash132]

Afternoon folks, sorry this is a bit long.

I bought a 2002 Toyota Corolla T-Sport from a local garage in late July 2010 on hire purchase under my mothers name. Within a couple of weeks the engine check light, the vehicle stability control (VSC) and the traction control off (TRC OFF) all came on at once. I took the vehicle immediately back (one of about 5 times it went back for various problems, none of which were sorted satisfactorily) as it came with a 3 month warranty . The car was returned a number of days later and indeed those three lights were no longer illuminated. Within a couple days however I noticed the engine check light was not coming on during the preignition. Again took it back as I was not happy about that but was told that they had done some checks and there definitely was no faults and the light would come on if there was a problem. For reasons I still don't understand I took their word on this and took the vehicle back. Fast forward to April 2011 and while driving home the engine has a catastrophic failure. From what I can tell one of the con rods has snapped and punched its way through the block. End result is the engine is completely destroyed and the cost of a repair outweighs the value of the car (second hand engine alone is £1500-2000). At least I had my AA membership from when I had to get one after the offside rear brake dismantled itself due to another bodged repair (honestly for a supposedly serviced and MOTd car I am now amazed at how many things are wrong with it) so got a tow home. I initially tried to get the garage to take it back or at least buy it back at a decent price but they were not interested so decided to try and sell it as is. At this point I was unaware of how a hire purchase agreement worked nor the rights I had. With no success with that either I decided to part out the vehicle to release some value from it. The first item I sold happened to be the instrument cluster which I sent off. Within days the gent I sold it to emailed me to say he had opened up the unit, because he wanted the coloured LEDs my model had,
and found a large amount of black silicon sealant had been injected into the plastic surround of three of the warning lights, which just to happened to be the engine check, VSC and TRC OFF lights. I was of course livid at this news and gave the guy a full refund to return the unit which he was more than happy to do.

At this point knowing that the only time the car had been out of my possession was the time it was with the garage I was 100% sure they were the ones responsible. As I was completely unaware of what to do in this situation I contacted consumer direct who put me on to trading standards who advised I would have to go see the garage first to see if the situation could be resolved that way first. Both my father and I dutifully went along with the pictures of what was found but the owner said he sometimes sends out vehicles to other garages and would need to do some investigations so we agreed that he would call me within a week. Not surprisingly there was no call so I called a week after the meeting to be told he had found nothing out (didn't sound like he had even tried in my opinion) so said I would call again within a few days again. I was by now looking in to the legal aspects of all this and realised the car was purchased on hire purchase and as such I should contact the finance company also. I called them and explained the situation to generally be told that because it was 2 weeks over a year since the purchase they were unwilling to do anything about it. They also said that I should not be selling off parts of the car. I now know that indeed I should not have tried selling parts but at that point only the cluster had been sold so with its return I put all the removed parts back on the car so it was in the same condition as after the engine failure (in fact better as I replaced a few of the screws/bolts that had rusted and sheered ). The follow up call to the garage 5 days later was much the same as before so I stated that no matter who did it, it was his responsibility to put right as the person who sold me the car and whose care it was under at the time the silicon was injected in the cluster and said I wanted a full refund. He laughed at this and at my saying I would take it further if need be before saying that was my prerogative and hanging up. Incensed I again called the finance company so I could confirm the address to send a complaint to and that if written permission was added that they could deal with me despite the policy being in my mothers name. This was one of the more interesting calls I have had with a 'professional' company with such phrases as 'I can guarantee we are not going to do a thing about it mate', 'I wouldn't even bother sending the letter' and brilliantly now I know more about hire purchasing 'why are you even contacting us about it? You should deal with the garage, I fail to see what it has to do with us'. Before the call ended one of the things they said was along the lines of that if I tried to complain they would call in the loan as I had breached the contract by taking parts off to sell. Now I do understand why they would recall the loan but the way it was said and in the context I took that as a threat.

This is basically where I am now and not sure what to do next. I want to send a letter to the finance company but I do not have the money to hand to cover it if they recall the loan. Can they do this even though as soon as I knew that I shouldn't sell items I got the only one I had sold back made every effort to rectify what I had done, which as I say has brought the car back to the condition before I started removing stuff? I know ignorance isn’t an excuse but I honestly had no idea about hire purchases, sale of goods acts etc and was just trying to get some value out of the vehicle. I got in contact with trading standards but they said as far as they are concerned I have no options as it would all be too difficult to prove anything etc. I should add I have a bit of supporting evidence in so much that back in August 2010 I made a post on a Toyota owners club forum that the 3 lights in question had come on and that I was suspicious that they did not come up on the preignition check when I got the car back (I still to this day wish I had followed up on those suspicions but I have a trusting nature and took they guys word for it). The guy that bought the cluster is also willing to write any necessary supporting statements as to what he found

If anyone can advise me at all it would be greatly appreciated as all of this is making me feel very ill and I just want these folks to put right what they have done and hopefully not do it to anyone else!

Some further info:

Toyota Corolla T-Sport 2002
Mileage ~ 83000
Purchase price £3450 (£3000 after £450 trade in)
Date on HP agreement: 26th July 2010
Engine blew on April 9th 2011, AA receipt copy is being sent out.

If I am missing anything or you need more info just ask.

Thanks in advance
Ashley

[Caspar]

Re: Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

Hi Ashley,

I'm sorry to hear of the troubles you've had with your car. What a nightmare!

If I've read your post correctly, you went to Trading Standards and they said to try and resolve it with the garage. You have done this, along with a few other things, and still have not got a satisfactory resolution.

My gut instinct would be to say go back to Trading Standards again, be perfectly honest with them, tell them what you have posted up here and see what they suggest now.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

I bought a 2002 Toyota Corolla T-Sport from a local garage in late July 2010 on hire purchase under my mothers name.

Why was it under your mother's name?

Who signed the HP agreement?

Within a couple of weeks the engine check light, the vehicle stability control (VSC) and the traction control off (TRC OFF) all came on at once. I took the vehicle immediately back (one of about 5 times it went back for various problems, none of which were sorted satisfactorily) as it came with a 3 month warranty . The car was returned a number of days later and indeed those three lights were no longer illuminated. Within a couple days however I noticed the engine check light was not coming on during the preignition. Again took it back as I was not happy about that but was told that they had done some checks and there definitely was no faults and the light would come on if there was a problem. For reasons I still don't understand I took their word on this and took the vehicle back. Fast forward to April 2011 and while driving home the engine has a catastrophic failure. From what I can tell one of the con rods has snapped and punched its way through the block. End result is the engine is completely destroyed and the cost of a repair outweighs the value of the car (second hand engine alone is £1500-2000). At least I had my AA membership from when I had to get one after the offside rear brake dismantled itself due to another bodged repair (honestly for a supposedly serviced and MOTd car I am now amazed at how many things are wrong with it) so got a tow home. I initially tried to get the garage to take it back or at least buy it back at a decent price but they were not interested so decided to try and sell it as is. At this point I was unaware of how a hire purchase agreement worked nor the rights I had.

At this point knowing that the only time the car had been out of my possession was the time it was with the garage I was 100% sure they were the ones responsible. As I was completely unaware of what to do in this situation I contacted consumer direct who put me on to trading standards who advised I would have to go see the garage first to see if the situation could be resolved that way first.

That seems unusually poor advice, as it should have been immediately obvious that the garage was unlikely to be helpful. No properly maintained engine should throw a con rod through the crankcase, much less though the block!

Both my father and I dutifully went along with the pictures of what was found but the owner said he sometimes sends out vehicles to other garages and would need to do some investigations so we agreed that he would call me within a week. Not surprisingly there was no call so I called a week after the meeting to be told he had found nothing out (didn't sound like he had even tried in my opinion) so said I would call again within a few days again. I was by now looking in to the legal aspects of all this and realised the car was purchased on hire purchase and as such I should contact the finance company also.

Correct - you should have been told that by Consumer Direct.

I called them and explained the situation to generally be told that because it was 2 weeks over a year since the purchase they were unwilling to do anything about it.

Oh, really?

How utterly irrelevant.

The follow up call to the garage 5 days later was much the same as before so I stated that no matter who did it, it was his responsibility to put right as the person who sold me the car and whose care it was under at the time the silicon was injected in the cluster and said I wanted a full refund. He laughed at this and at my saying I would take it further if need be before saying that was my prerogative and hanging up. Incensed I again called the finance company so I could confirm the address to send a complaint to and that if written permission was added that they could deal with me despite the policy being in my mothers name. This was one of the more interesting calls I have had with a 'professional' company with such phrases as 'I can guarantee we are not going to do a thing about it mate', 'I wouldn't even bother sending the letter' and brilliantly now I know more about hire purchasing 'why are you even contacting us about it? You should deal with the garage, I fail to see what it has to do with us'.

How quaint.

I know what it has to do with them. I'd be astounded if they really don't know and, before long, you'll know too.

Before the call ended one of the things they said was along the lines of that if I tried to complain they would call in the loan as I had breached the contract by taking parts off to sell. Now I do understand why they would recall the loan but the way it was said and in the context I took that as a threat.

Yes, that was a bit foolish and, as the 'chain of custody' was broken by you having sent off the cluster by post, you have no way to prove (other than by a sworn statement from the buyer) that the light cluster was botched in the way you described. I realise that you might be loathe to pay another penny on that clapped-out jalopy, but it would be wise to remedy your breach of contract by replacing the component assembly, either with new parts or, at least, serviceable parts from a vehicle breaker.

This is basically where I am now and not sure what to do next. I want to send a letter to the finance company but I do not have the money to hand to cover it if they recall the loan. Can they do this even though as soon as I knew that I shouldn't sell items I got the only one I had sold back made every effort to rectify what I had done, which as I say has brought the car back to the condition before I started removing stuff? I know ignorance isn’t an excuse but I honestly had no idea about hire purchases, sale of goods acts etc and was just trying to get some value out of the vehicle. I got in contact with trading standards but they said as far as they are concerned I have no options as it would all be too difficult to prove anything etc.

And that was incredibly bad advice!

If anyone can advise me at all it would be greatly appreciated as all of this is making me feel very ill and I just want these folks to put right what they have done and hopefully not do it to anyone else!

You should report that garage to VOSA, as they may have a quaint or peculiar approach to MOT testing - for them, MOT probably means Made Of Tat.

As for the finance company, they really ought to know - and I'd be amazed if they didn't - that, under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (link) the finance company would be jointly and severally liable for any non-performance by the vendor - and selling a motor car that is not reasonably durable is certainly non-performance by the vendor. Alternatively, if the contract is for hire purchase, the hirer seems not to care about the condition or serviceability of its property and, in that respect, they seem to have broken the contract before you started to treat it like a big Meccano set.

If you cannot get any sense from Consumer Direct, go to your local CAB and have a chat with their duty lawyer.

[Caspar]

Re: Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

Good advice CC. Unusually CD seem to have slipped up significantly here. Engines do occasionally have con rod problems, though there's usually some warning via misfiring. As you proabably know the con rods move with massive speed when driving and if one is slightly bent, it bends more and more until it snaps. Because of the velocity with which they're travelling, they do usually perforate the block. I've not only had it on (embarassing!) an old Austin Allegro, but seen it on quite a few cars since.

Con rods are not routinely inspected as part of any normal maintenance routine, so even if perfectly maintained, it could still have been an issue. However, I'd be surprised if they just let go and there were no warning signs, but just maybe the conrods and affected issues could have been the result of the warning lights in the first place.

I'm also surprised they filled with black silicon, as much easier and by far the normal approach for a "bent" garage is simply to remove the bulb. Injecting the silicon sounds strange.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

Good advice CC.

Thank you.

Engines do occasionally have con rod problems, though there's usually some warning via misfiring. As you proabably know the con rods move with massive speed when driving and if one is slightly bent, it bends more and more until it snaps. Because of the velocity with which they're travelling, they do usually perforate the block. I've not only had it on (embarassing!) an old Austin Allegro, but seen it on quite a few cars since.

I would not call myself a motorist as, although I have a full licence to drive a motor car with manual gearbox, I have not driven one since 1986 when I decided that there were too many idiots on the road and the best thing to do was to reduce their number by one.

Con rods are not routinely inspected as part of any normal maintenance routine, so even if perfectly maintained, it could still have been an issue. However, I'd be surprised if they just let go and there were no warning signs, but just maybe the conrods and affected issues could have been the result of the warning lights in the first place.

What the OP called the "engine check light" actually warns of low oil pressure, so that rather suggests there was a dearth of lubrication in the engine. The crankshaft and big end bearings would probably receive sufficient lubrication just from splash, but the same would not be true for the rest of the engine. The fault could have been a defective pressure sensor but, in this case, it is more likely to have been a defective pump, a blocked filter or even insufficient oil in the sump.

A properly maintained motor car should have none of those problems.

I'm also surprised they filled with black silicon, as much easier and by far the normal approach for a "bent" garage is simply to remove the bulb. Injecting the silicon sounds strange.

Yes, it does seem odd. Perhaps the garage already had a tube of black silicone sealant open from another job, such as fixing a water leak through the corroded underside of a boot or floorpan?

It is all the more important that VOSA (link) should be notified.

[Ash132]

Re: Garage covering warning lights, engine blown

Thank you CC for your reply.

The HP agreement is in my mothers name as 3 years ago I was briefly out of work and defaulted on a couple loan payments which has haunted me ever since. Unfortunately they were not the ones pressuring me to take PPI or I would have been ok. I am in a much better position now and haven’t missed a single payment since then but since the credit crisis the defaults are enough for no one to even want to touch me with a barge pole.

There was certainly nothing that made me worry with regards to misfires etc with the vehicle, but then again I am used to old cars that run a bit rough anyway so my perception may have been out a tad. Not to the extent I wouldn’t notice a con rod slapping about though.

I too thought the two weeks over a year was completely irrelevant in this case!

I believe this garage does not do MOTs but instead sends them to a service garage in the area. I has thought I should ask for the information as to which company that is so I can report them to VOSA.

I would suspect the reason for using the silicon to be twofold. Firstly the lights on this cluster are LED type lights which are integrated in to the circuit board so is not a simple case of pulling them out and secondly there is a plastic piece that separates the board from the face plate which I suspect they lifted up to inject the silicon in (wouldn’t have even needed to remove the needles) rather than dismantle the unit from the back as this would have disturbed the void sticker. I have uploaded the pictures the chap I sold the cluster to here if you want to have a look: http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee118/132Ash/

A Meccano set would be a lot more fun I’ll give you that, at least I could make something useful out of it!