private sale / misdescription? Rights

[jimboafro]

I sold a 1988 vw campervan to a couple back at the end of last summer and have been having a bit of a nightmare since. In the advert and i stated "had reconditioned gearbox fitted" unfortunately on their drive home after taking the van for a test drive the gearbox packed up. I have the original advert for the gearbox which was a second hand reconditioned unit and the receipt from the garage for removal of old and fitting of recon unit.

The buyers have tried to force me into buying the van back paying for the tow truck paying for their mechanics labour to look at it and saying i must collect the van from its current location. They have treatened me with trading standards even though im a private seller and owned the van for almost a year. Inland revenue and court action. I made them a good will gesture offer of finding a replacement gearbox and £200 for the labour to fit it. They refused this offer 3 times still threatening court action.

They have backed down a bit now but are now trying to make me pay for some MOT advisories at a cost of £430 find another gearbox plus the £200 for fitting.
I would like to know exactly where i stand with this issue as i feel they have exhausted my goodwill
Thanks in advance

[leclerc]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

I sold a 1988 vw campervan to a couple back at the end of last summer and have been having a bit of a nightmare since. In the advert and i stated "had reconditioned gearbox fitted" unfortunately on their drive home after taking the van for a test drive the gearbox packed up. I have the original advert for the gearbox which was a second hand reconditioned unit and the receipt from the garage for removal of old and fitting of recon unit.

The buyers have tried to force me into buying the van back paying for the tow truck paying for their mechanics labour to look at it and saying i must collect the van from its current location. They have treatened me with trading standards even though im a private seller and owned the van for almost a year. Inland revenue and court action. I made them a good will gesture offer of finding a replacement gearbox and £200 for the labour to fit it. They refused this offer 3 times still threatening court action.

They have backed down a bit now but are now trying to make me pay for some MOT advisories at a cost of £430 find another gearbox plus the £200 for fitting.
I would like to know exactly where i stand with this issue as i feel they have exhausted my goodwill
Thanks in advance

Hang on a second. It passed the MOT so why would you pay for advisories?
What were the advisories? Surely if the gearbox failed then it would fail the MOT anyway?

[jimboafro]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

It had 11 months MOT at the point of sale the advisories were slightly perished steering rack gaiter and slight play in a wishbone bush. Im not really concerned about these as they are not major issues as the van passed its MOT.
The gearbox which i had fitted in march 2010 was fine in the 5/6 months before the sale and fine for the MOT but failed after they had taken it for a test drive and somewhere on their drive home.
I just wonder what my liabilities are I didnt knowingly misdescribe the vehicle it did have a second hand reconditioned gearbox fitted but I did feel I had a maoral not a legal obligation to help with the gearbox issue but after all the threats i feel less obliged to help now.
Where do i stand in terms of the law?

[volvodriver]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

I dont know about the law, but surely with a 1988 camper its a case of Caveat Emptor - buyer beware.

Did you give the buyer a receipt?

Did you sell it as "seen, tried and tested"

Do you know what is actually wrong with the box? Could it be the linkage rather than the box?

Is your current vehicle insured? Could you find out whether your insurer has a free legal helpline you could ask?
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I think I would be tempted at this point to tell them to get on their bikes.

That's a personal opinion, not endorsed by law or this forum, but I seriously doubt there is any recourse on you if you described it fairly and honestly.

[Amethyst]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

They are pishing in the wind with inland revenue and trading standards as you are not a business but a private seller.

Where the seller is a private individual, the goods must be “as described” (and it seems they were). The goods are not legally required to be of “satisfactory quality” or “fit for purpose”. The only description issue you could have are the advisories - did you outline those on the advertisement (also do you have a copy of the advert as you will need it if they do go to court)

Do you ebay listings show you are a private seller (ie you dont have lots of cars on for sale reguarly etc)...

You have offered to rectify the fault at your own expense which seems reasonable and presumably you have this offer in writing ?

[jimboafro]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

I have copies of all correspondance including the original advert.
The only thing im worried about is the gearbox issue and what are the expectations of a reconditioned gearbox? It might be irrelavant as the sale of goods act just mentions legal right to sell and goods must not be misdescribed. I have spoken to trading standards and e bay and they agree i am not a trader.
Once it has left my hands if it is not knowingly misdescribed which it wasnt then what are your responsibilties under the law if an unfortunate thing like a major mechanical failure like this occurs?
They have been trying to say the vehicle was in a dangerous state because 50 miles down the road the gearbox packed up!
Are there any similar cases anyone knows of would it even get to court?
I did want to help them but after 4 months of grief am less inclined to and if i dont have to by law then i wont.

[Amethyst]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

and the receipt from the garage for removal of old and fitting of recon unit.

any warranty on the gearbox / recon work ?

[Tools]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

Forget about the advisories completely, several months have passed since its last MOT and you are in no way responsible for these.

The gearbox, what exactly is the fault with it and is it still driveable? I assume they drove it to the MOT test station for it's MOT?

Why did they not return the van to you on the same day they bought it when the gearbox failed? Do you have any proof other than their say so that the gearbox has failed?

Nattie, the gearbox is not checked on the MOT other than if it were insecure to the vehicle and likely to fall off.

Initial thoughts are that they do not have a case, you described it accurately in the initial advert. Do you have a receipt for the recon box, have you passed on the details of its seller to the vans buyer. If so, let them chase the supplier of the gearbox and tell them you have nothing further to add, if they threaten court, Inland Revenue (laughable), or TS then tell them to go ahead and you will respond to any of the above, it is extremely doubtful you will hear from any of those listed.

[jimboafro]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

I owned the van for almost a year had the gearbox fitted in march 2010 sold the van in october 2010 had it MOTed in aujust 2010.

The gearbox failed after they bought the van and drove away.

I bought the gearbox as a second hand recon unit from an advert on an internet forum i have a copy of that ad. I also have a receipt from the garage that removed the old gearbox and fitted the recon unit.

Unfortunately no warranty or paperwork with the gearbox i bought.

They had a mechanic take the box apart and it had seized they had to get a tow truck home.

I know it comes under the sale of goods act but from my point of veiw I did not knowingly misdescribe the van. If it suffers a mechanical failure down the road is that my responsibility?

[Tools]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

In a word, no.

Supply them with details of the gearbox supplier and have no further contact with the buyer as posted earlier.

[Caspar]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

This extract is taken from Which Used car problems FAQs - Your rights: buying second hand cars - Sale of goods - Which? Consumer Rights

They are usually pretty reliable and accurate. I would say this covers you 100%. Unfortunately with a second hand car/vehicle things can break at any time - you had no way of knowing the gearbox was going to pack up. Let them try and take you to court - they haven't a hope!Repairs needed soon after buying

I bought a second hand car from a private seller and it needed new brakes two weeks later. Shouldn’t the seller have told me that the brakes needed replacing? And can I claim against the seller for repairs?
No. Unless the seller specifically told you that the car was in good condition, you don’t have a claim against him.
By law the car only has to meet the description that the seller gave you, and you don’t have a right to claim just because it needs repairs. There is no obligation that a seller must reveal everything about the second hand car – only that what they do tell you is true.

[jimboafro]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

I guess it would be a small claims court issue so it would be up to the judge on the day.

From my point of view i didnt misdiscribe the van but from their point of view they didnt even make it home after buying it!

I just wonder what the worst case senario is if it goes to court or if i should just offer them a few hunded quid to go find another gearbox and get it fitted.

Im going to have a meeting with the Citizens A B tomorrow maybe they will able to clear it up a little.

If i hadnt put in the advert 'had recon gearbox fitted' I would not be worried at all as it was fine at the point of sale but im not sure if that will complicate it as it would imply the gearbox would be reliable?

[jimboafro]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

Ok the latest twist is that they are saying they will have repairs carried out on the van and take me to the small claims court to recover the costs.
That is costs to fix the adviseries the gearbox and the cost of the tow truck they had to pay! This is almost 6 months down the line after they bought the vehicle.
Im not really sure how to respond to this or how worried i should be.

What is the likely outcome of such a claim in a small claims court?
Many thanks

[Caspar]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

In my opinion, for what it's worth, they are throwing money away try ing to take you to court. All that has to be correct is your description in the advert, which it was. If it breaks after they've bought it, then it is there problem, not yours.

Any issues with the MOT are ridiculous. An MOT only warrants the condition of certain aspects of the vehicle at a certain time of day on the day it was tested. 15 seconds after driving out of the MOT station a bulb could blow and it would have failed!

Let them take you to court. It would be very interesting to see what their defence is. Obviously it would centre around the gearbox, but you were not to know it was going to fail. As said previously, in what way has it failed. My motorhome gearbox failed last summer - it took me ten minutes lying underneath with a couple of spanners to repair - at some stage the gear linkages had been replaced and one was catching another making reverse impossible to engage. Took them off, put them on in the right position and no problems since. It may be a major failure (though I don't think they'd be driving it if it were that major), or more likely with a recon box a minor failure. I note they seem to be avoiding supplying details of the failure to you.

I honestly don't think they've got a leg to stand on. If they wanted a warranty they should have bought from a dealer! I'd be very tempted after the amount they've gone on to threaten counter-suing for harassment.

[WendyB]

Re: private sale / misdescription? Rights

You could re-iterate your previous offer to them, which seems to be completely reasonable, if you feel you should. The advisories are a complete non-starter, neither here nor there so don't worry about them.

If it were me, I would be tempted to defend the claim with a complete breakdown (excuse the pun) of all events, your offer to them etc, the fact that they rejected it etc etc. They could well be seen by the Judge as bringing a vexatious claim, and told to bugger off. It won't go in their favour that you made them a perfectly reasonable offer and they turned it down.

Just my opinion.