Sale of goods act.

[Tafflaff]

Hi I hope this is in the correct place.

Recently I had been looking for a nice older second hand 7 seater to replace my overley expensive 2 yr old Galaxy. My wife found a nice 02 Renault Espace in one of the Garages in the area.

We picked the car up and as soon as we got onto the industrial estate the car started missing. Phoned the garage and they said fuel it up cos it was empty and had probably picked up some muck off the bottom of the tank. I filled the tank and also put some Redex in. Pulled onto the A470 and the car would not go over 50. Also every time I broke there was a grinding noise from the gearbox and a clank.

I phoned the salesman and he said we're shut now, fetch it down in the morning. We did this and on the way down the A470 going around a left bend there was another clank and the car lurched a few feet to the right. I nearly lost it! Had my wife and two of the children in the car as well!

I got to the garage and the mechanic said there was a coil box gone and 2 gear box mountings broke. This is a car that had just had a full examination by said mechanic the day before. We insisted on our money back and he said the boss would have to phone us . Though he was not in at the moment. Train home no car.

Now the boss is giving us the run around , not returning calls, and passing messages that he'll get the car fixed.

I've checked the sales of goods act and It states that the goods must be fit for purpose. As far as second hand cars go. Private sales only need to be 'As described' but second hand cars from commercial garages must 'Be safe and suitable to get you from A to B' clearly this car is not. I have contacted VOSA and they agree that mounting brackets are most definately a safety issue and that no car leaving a place of commercial sale should have broken gearbox mounting brackets. I've also contacted Trading standards who are taking up the case as a safety issue.

In the meantime I have no car.

We called down the garage once again tonight and the guy refused point blank to issue a refund - only fix the car by Wednesday.

I need to send the garage a letter demanding my money back , but dont know where to start. Anyone on here clued up with this part of the law.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks Tafflaff

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Look here Legal Beagles post #2, final paragraph.

I would reject the car outright on the ground that it is unfit for purpose and demand a full and complete refund, including a reasonable sum in compensation. Give them seven days to pay you and if they have not done so, issue a claim for the full amount you paid for the car, plus costs and a sum for compensation.

How did you pay for the car, as this may have a bearing on the legal action you may launch, should you not be compensated in full?

If you would like some advice on drafting a suitable letter, just ask.

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

I paid for the car by Debit Card , I'd love some help with a draft if any helpful beagle out there would like to help :beagle:

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

What sort of Debit card?

The reason I ask is because, if it was a Visa Debit then you are protected under the Visa Debit Chargeback Scheme.

You have 120 days in initiate a chargeback, which it would appear you are still inside and in that case, you should do so on the basis that the car was unfit for purpose. Visa Debit Chargeback is a procedure in which the banks will ‘charge back’ the value of the original transaction directly from the supplier’s bank and pass this amount on to you. However, this does not happen automatically and a dispute will have to be opened and investigated, but is still a great deal easier than pursuing a car dealer through the courts and will no doubt be faster too.

Speak to your card issuer about obtaining the forms and if they fob you off, come back here for further advice.

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

What sort of Debit card?

The reason I ask is because, if it was a Visa Debit then you are protected under the Visa Debit Chargeback Scheme.

You have 120 days in initiate a chargeback, which it would appear you are still inside and in that case, you should do so on the basis that the car was unfit for purpose. Visa Debit Chargeback is a procedure in which the banks will ‘charge back’ the value of the original transaction directly from the supplier’s bank and pass this amount on to you. However, this does not happen automatically and a dispute will have to be opened and investigated, but is still a great deal easier than pursuing a car dealer through the courts and will no doubt be faster too.

Speak to your card issuer about obtaining the forms and if they fob you off, come back here for further advice.

Ok after four! phonecalls to Natwest they finally agreed that there was such a thing as Debit Card Chargeback.

Not only did they finally agree it existed they've got a flaming department dedicated to it!!!!!!!!!!!

Said department though is only open monday to Friday so I'm still going to attemp a draft letter to the Car Sales.

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Not amused with Visa DEbit Chargeback at all.

I explained the situation and informed them I had driven the car out of the garage and noticed the fault immediately.

The lady put me on hold to take advice on the matter only to come back and say 'We dont have a line to follow here as the car had left the garage'

Are second hand cars a grey area in chargeback ?

Not according to the office of fair trading as they say that even older second hand cars must be suitable for purpose....it wasnt , And must be able to get you safely from A - B ...... it was certainly not!

Do I ?

A/ Push harder on Visa ?
B/Let office of fair trading do their bit
C/Send the Car dealer the letter to put the wind up them?
D/All of the above.

Any help at all would be appreciated.. They've got we had for a car , and with 4 children we are really struggling.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

I am puzzled as to the attitude that NatWest have taken, but not surprised.

Read this thread New Member Advice - Legal Beagles

The Visa Chargeback Scheme is not quite the same as the s.75 protection you get with a credit card, but it's as near as makes no difference.

Clearly NatWest need educating and you should pursue them, on the basis that it is easier to deal with a bank, as slippery as NatWest have shown themselves to be, than it is dealing with a car dealer.

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Ok office of fair trading phoned today and surprise surprise , had had dealings with this garage many time prior to this. The guy was very helpful and said I'd hear back before the end of the week.

Spurred on by this I phoned Nat West again and asked for clarification as to why they could not take on this matter. She said that as the garage had offered a repair they would not be able to and if it had been a credit card it would be a different matter. I asked the lady to read out the exact terms of chargeback that prevented her from taking on this claim........she was unable to.

So then Debit card chargeback is a toothless dinosaur compared to the protection offered to those with credit cards.

To say I'm unimpressed with Nat West to date is a flaming understatment. I am not going to let this lie...Not even if Trading standards get all my money back. Nat West have going to have to explain themselved a little better than the weak wishy washy flem they're spouting at the moment.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Although you may ask for a Visa chargeback from NatWest, it is Visa who operate the scheme and it is not for NatWest to frustrate you.

If you have a valid reason to open a chargeback dispute, they must do so and if the person you speak to will not do it, ask to speak to a supervisor. Failing that - stop talking to them altogether and write a letter.

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Have heared back from office of fair trading today , who had to see the garage about several cars - Humph. They mentioned my car to the owner and he just gave them a bemused look.

Oft have said they pursue a criminal element on this case as I returned the car back to the garage. They said I would have to pursue the matter down the civil route. They advised me to write a letter to the garage giving them a set time to reply. Is there anyone that can help me with this draft as I wouldnt feel confident doing it myself.

As far as the chargeback goes I have not given in on that route either but I'm finding it very difficult to get any hard and fast Terms on this. Any ideas ?

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Typing that last reply wound me up enough to have a go at Natwest Chargeback again. Once again they reiterated that they were unable to help me as my complaint fell outside the area of cover. I then asked the lady if their terms and conditions specifically stated that on is unable to use chargeback for second hand vehicle purchases, to this after much umming and erring she replied 'No just the reasons behind your request for chargeback"

What on earth is she on about ? I then tried Visa themselves but they just said I have to deal with Natwest.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

In my experience, the first letter should always be brief and to the point. Something like this.

Dear Sir

Re: (Car details)
Date of Purchase: (Date you bought the car)

I write to in relation to the above vehicle and with which I have experienced several significant problems. I have been advised that the vehicle is unsafe and as such can confirm that the vehicle is defective.

TAKE NOTICE therefore that I hereby formally reject the vehicle under s.14(2) and s.14(3) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Due to the faults with the vehicle you have failed to discharge your implied duty under s.14(2) of the above Act that the vehicle be of satisfactory quality and further under s.14(3) that the vehicle be reasonably fit for purpose.

You have until (date) - seven working days hence)) to remit to me a full refund of the purchase price.

Should I not receive a full refund it is my intention to commence legal proceedings to recover the purchase price together with interest and costs without further notice.

If you are in any doubt as to what to do with this letter then I suggest that you place it before your solicitors without delay.

Yours faithfully

Incidentally, you may want to look here A Mini Adventure....... - Legal Beagles for details on rejecting a car. This was a new car and was the subject of an HP agreement, but the principle is broadly similar. In particular the relatively recent Court of Appeal case mentioned in post #28 regarding your right of rejection.

Finally, if you are going to threaten legal action, you must be prepared to execute your threat and issue a claim at the expiry of your deadline. If you would like help to draft the PoC, then just ask.

[Guest]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Typing that last reply wound me up enough to have a go at Natwest Chargeback again. Once again they reiterated that they were unable to help me as my complaint fell outside the area of cover. I then asked the lady if their terms and conditions specifically stated that on is unable to use chargeback for second hand vehicle purchases, to this after much umming and erring she replied 'No just the reasons behind your request for chargeback"

What on earth is she on about ? I then tried Visa themselves but they just said I have to deal with Natwest.

Stop telephoning NatWest and write to them, informing them that you would like to open a chargeback dispute, but have been fobbed off on the telephone and that they have seven days to send you the appropriate forms, or you will contact the Financial Ombudsman and lodge a complaint.

Financial Ombudsman Service

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Thanks very much Cetelco , I will take onboard your advice and send the letters immediately.

Your help is much appreciated

[Tafflaff]

Re: Sale of goods act.

Bit of progress on my claim against the garage........well no progress actually as thee garage has ignored the seven day letter.

I spoke to trading standards and they've advised me to start court proceedings against the garage.

I'm aware of POC's from the bank charge claims but am not sure what to write in this case. Or what to claim for.

Any help would be much appreciated as always