VT with engine management light on

[mark1979]

I ordered my wife a new car through a discounted scheme I get from work. Her old car hits VT point right before new one arrives. I’ve recently spent over £1000 on it fixing an air suspension issue and now literally 2 weeks before I was going to VT, the engine management light has come on.

Can I VT like this or would they charge me? Car has been fully maintained, serviced and MOT since we have owned it.

[R0b]

Owned from new, second hand?

How old is the car and how many miles has accrued since you have had it in your possession.

You can certainly VT but I'm not sure how you can not expect them to charge for it. The argument will then depend on whether you failed to take reasonable care and if you did how much should you pay for it. That could be a combination of factors such as age of car, length of time in your possession, the miles accrued prior to taking possession of it etc.

You could then argue you should only pay a proportion of the cost if nothing at all.

Equally, you could pay for a diagnostic and see what comes up.

[mark1979]

Used car, 57 (2007) plate. We’ve had it since March 2017. It had done 64k when bought. Now done 77k. Going to get a diagnostic done today. If it’s going to cost more than a couple of hundred to sort then I’d rather not be throwing any more money at it.

[R0b]

It's not unreasonable to argue that the car is 12 years old and had already accumulated 64k miles when it came into your wife's hands and since then, she has only done 13k miles. It would probably assist in your favour the fact that the car has been maintained, serviced etc. as you can show the car had taken reasonably taken care of.

Of course when you VT you most definitely want to take copies/photographs of those documents and receipts because once you hand it over, the onus will be on you to prove that reasonable care was taken.

Should you opt not to fix the car, it would be sensible to inform the finance company of this rather than spring it on them when they turn up on your doorstep as that would be unreasonable and I wouldn't blame them for wanting to recover aborted costs. information from the diagnostic might also be helpful to mention.

The finance company is either going to refuse to collect it or will want to charge you for it to be towed away. Now if they refuse to accept your notice of termination unless you agree to pay them or fix the car, that benefits you because that will amount to a repudiatory breach of contract which allows you to write to them and accept their breach, terminate the agreement and discharge all future liability obligations - however, I won't go into any more detail on that and just take one step at a time.

[mark1979]

We wrote to Blackhorse to VT unfortunately my wife forgot to actually sign the letter and just posted it.

They have now written to us and said "you recently told us you intend to terminate your agreement and return the goods". They also go on to give options regarding returning the car which include us delivering it to an auction site or paying them £75 to collect it.

They also say that if she wishes to terminate that she should complete and return their paperwork before the next payment falls due (payment date has already passed in the cross over of all of this). Today she received a call from their collections team who said the letter to terminate wasnt valid as it was unsigned. She was in college at the time of the call and after her placed her on hold she had to hang up on him about 7 or 8 minutes to go to her next class.

What now? Do we stand firm on termination as per the date of original letter?

[R0b]

You are not legally required to physically sign or even sign the document at all.

The requirement is to give notice in writing and that's it. Nonetheless, you can point them to the Law Commission's report on electronic signatures (link here) which goes through the case law and confirms that even printing your name or putting a squiggle is sufficient to constitute a signature provided it was intended as one to authenticate the document. If your partner put her name at the end of the letter, I would say that is sufficient.

I believe Blackhorse have been rapped in the past by the Financial Ombudsman for doing this very thing and ultimately puttng adverse markers on people's credit files. They've then had to pay out compensation as a result so you could remind them of that, but I would first write to them and set out what your partner was told over the phone, then explain why you don't believe that to be the case and get them to confirm whether they consider the notice to be invalid or not - take it from there.

[mark1979]

Thanks Rob.

What about the collection fee? I assume we just tell them that her liability has now ended and that if they want it back they need to come and get it?

[mark1979]

Right we have now spoken to Blackhorse twice, once to an agent who simpluy ended the call because she didnt agree with me and then again to a manager who simply said that a signed letter was part of their "internal procedure" and that without it the agreement wasnt terminated and wouldnt be terminated until such time that a signed letter was received.

I did point out that my wife had typed her name on the bottom of the letter which is how she "signs" all letters that she sends but again they say this isn't acceptable to them.

I intend to follow up with another letter this evening reaffirming our desire to VT as of 24th September and now giving them 7 days to collect the car. I will pop down to the local shopping centre and find out what the daily parking charge is for the area, after the 7 days we will be charging them this daily fee as the car is parked in a designated space which we now cannot use. We have 2 spaces and currently 3 cars!

[R0b]

Well you need to make sure you document that in your letter. Their internal procedure doesnt trump the legislation so it's their loss and they will be the ones that lose out.

I would suggest you take time to draft the letter, theres no rush to get it off to them - a well crafted one is going to benefit you in the long run than a rushed one.

Theres plenty of examples I've put on this forum if you do a search you'll find a few that you can use to adapt. If you want any feedback feel free to post it up and I'll add my comments

[mark1979]

I have amended the 7 day collection letter to suit:

Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Failure to accept voluntary termination

I am writing to you because I have recently exercised my voluntary termination right under Section 99 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. However, you have explicitly refused to accept my notice of termination.

It is my understanding that the reason for your refusal is because you require me to sign both my letter and your documentation acknowledging that I am liable to pay for any /or damage caused to the vehicle beyond reasonable wear and tear. I have repeatedly asked a number of your customer service advisors to point me to the relevant provision under the CCA 1974 that requires me to sign any documentation before the voluntary termination can be processed but, unsurprisingly, no answer has ever been given. For the avoidance of doubt, there is no legal obligation for me to sign any documentation in order for you to proceed with the voluntary termination. The right to terminate the hire-purchase agreement is a statutory one which need only be satisfied by giving you written notice. Not signing your documentation does not, and cannot, prevent termination of the agreement in accordance with my notice previously given to you.

Your own finance document sets out the terms of termination by saying “you should write to the person you make your payments to” and I have done exactly that. The CCA 1974 states that notice must be given in writing in order for a valid voluntary termination to have taken effect but there is no specific definition to explain what is meant by "in writing".

The Interpretation Act 1978 (IA 1978) is an Act of Parliament that was introduced to provide a general definition of words used in legislation where no definition exists in that specific Act. Schedule 1 of the IA 1978 states that "writing" includes:

"typing, printing, lithography, photography and other modes of representing or reproducing words in a visible form, and expressions referring to writing are construed accordingly."

In my view, your actions constitute an aggressive commercial practice contrary to the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, that is to say, demanding that I sign your documentation before you will accept the voluntary termination when in fact I am not legally required to do so. Indeed, research online suggests that this practice is somewhat widespread within your business and is not just limited to my case. That is why I have taken the liberty to write to both Trading Standards and the Financial Conduct Authority to complain about your aggressive and oppressive behaviour.

Notwithstanding the above, I am writing to inform you that unless you intend to collect the vehicle by 15th October 2019, I will consider the vehicle as abandoned and I shall cancel all remaining tax and insurance on the vehicle (which, by the way, currently remains on a public highway). I have already allowed 14 days for you to make your own arrangements which I consider to be a reasonable amount of time, yet you have failed to act. Therefore, if the vehicle remains uncollected by 15th October 2019 then the vehicle shall no longer be my responsibility and all risk and liability rests with you. Just in case you claim that the vehicle was not abandoned, I will then send the vehicle’s keys and documentation by post to the address listed on the hire-purchase agreement but I want to be clear that responsibility for the vehicle shall nevertheless rest with you from 15th October 2019 onwards.

In the interests of fairness and in order to mitigate costs, if you contact me in writing, by telephone (07xxxxxxxxx) or by email (xxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.co.uk) before 15^th October 2019 to confirm that my agreement has been terminated effective 24^th September 2019 then I am prepared to deliver the vehicle to a BCA site at no cost to you.

I trust that it is not necessary for me to take the above action and you will contact me in due course to confirm a convenient time and date for me to deliver the vehicle to BCA.

Sincerely,

[R0b]

The letter looks fine but where have you documented that blackhorse have ended the call and that the requirement is internal rather than legal?

[mark1979]

Updated to include recap of phonecall and to remove my offer of delivery to BCA. In hindsight this is not my problem and I have no desire to make things easier for them. Engine management light has now gone off which is handy!

Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Failure to accept voluntary termination

I am writing to you because I have recently exercised my voluntary termination right under Section 99 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. However, you have explicitly refused to accept my notice of termination.

It is my understanding that the reason for your refusal is because you require me to sign both my letter and your documentation acknowledging that I am liable to pay for any for damage caused to the vehicle beyond reasonable wear and tear. I have repeatedly asked a number of your customer service advisors to point me to the relevant provision under the CCA 1974 that requires me to sign any documentation before the voluntary termination can be processed but, unsurprisingly, no answer has ever been given. For the avoidance of doubt, there is no legal obligation for me to sign any documentation in order for you to proceed with the voluntary termination. The right to terminate the hire-purchase agreement is a statutory one which need only be satisfied by giving you written notice. Not signing your documentation does not, and cannot, prevent termination of the agreement in accordance with my notice previously given to you.

During a telephone call with one of your advisors and her manager on 8^th October 2019, I was informed that the reason my letter notifying you of the termination needed to be signed was due to an “internal policy”. I explained that your internal policies were of no concern of mine as they could not override the requirements as set out by CCA 1974 however the advisor stated “if you are just going to throw CCA at me then I am going to end this call as we are getting nowhere”.

Her manager then confirmed that you would require a letter to be signed in order for you to “accept the termination notice” however that the date of termination would then be the date on which you received this new letter. When questioned about this it was again an internal policy that required this.

It is my view that I have adequately served notice of termination of the agreement and you should now proceed on that basis. It is not within your power to choose to accept or refuse a notice to terminate. The only explanation given for your internal policy was to confirm validity of the notice which given our telephone conversations and this letter, I think we can all agree that it was clearly my intention to terminate the agreement when I wrote the letter of 24^th September.

It is also my view that the letter of 24^th September was signed as I had typed my name at the bottom which is how I always “sign” letters that I have typed on a computer.

The term “signature” is generally understood to mean the signing of a written document with one's own hand. However, it is not critical that a signature actually be written by hand for it to be legally valid. It may, for example, be typewritten, engraved, or stamped. As long as it adequately records the intent of the parties involved, it is considered a valid signature. As contracts continue to move into paperless electronic formats, the criteria for what constitutes a “signature” have been substantially broadened.

I should also point out that when I bought the car and entered into the finance agreement with you, I did so by simply typing my name onto a laptop in order to “sign” the finance agreement.

Your own finance document sets out the terms of termination by saying “you should write to the person you make your payments to” and I have done exactly that. The CCA 1974 states that notice must be given in writing in order for a valid voluntary termination to have taken effect but there is no specific definition to explain what is meant by "in writing".

The Interpretation Act 1978 (IA 1978) is an Act of Parliament that was introduced to provide a general definition of words used in legislation where no definition exists in that specific Act. Schedule 1 of the IA 1978 states that "writing" includes:

"typing, printing, lithography, photography and other modes of representing or reproducing words in a visible form, and expressions referring to writing are construed accordingly."

In my view, your actions constitute an aggressive commercial practice contrary to the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, that is to say, demanding that I sign your documentation before you will accept the voluntary termination when in fact I am not legally required to do so. Indeed, research online suggests that this practice is somewhat widespread within your business and is not just limited to my case. That is why I have taken the liberty to write to both Trading Standards and the Financial Conduct Authority to complain about your aggressive and oppressive behaviour.

Notwithstanding the above, I am writing to inform you that unless you intend to collect the vehicle by 20th October 2019, I will consider the vehicle as abandoned and I shall cancel all remaining tax and insurance on the vehicle (which, by the way, currently remains on a public highway). I have already allowed 14 days for you to make your own arrangements which I consider to be a reasonable amount of time, yet you have failed to act. Therefore, if the vehicle remains uncollected by 20th October 2019 then the vehicle shall no longer be my responsibility and all risk and liability rests with you. Just in case you claim that the vehicle was not abandoned, I will then send the vehicle’s keys and documentation by post to the address listed on the hire-purchase agreement but I want to be clear that responsibility for the vehicle shall nevertheless rest with you from 20th October 2019 onwards.


Sincerely,

[mark1979]

Should I also complain to Blackhorse and Ombudsman about the handling of this?

They are saying a payment that was due last week is now late, will they put an adverse mark on her credit file? If so what can I do?

[R0b]

You have to follow procedures. Blackhorse first, then you get a final response then you go to the financial ombudsman.

BH will ultimately lose and I suspect they will backtrack if you go down the ombudsman route. Otherwise you can take matter to court for breach of data protection and negligence, I'd be surprised if it went all the way but that's your partner's choice.

You could probably add to the letter at the end, that as the matter is in dispute, they should refrain from any adverse markers until the outcome otherwise your partner will consider legal action and/or compensation.

Ultimately, if it happens, then it happens. That's the risk taken when you get in this position and then have dig out of it - otherwise pay up.

[mark1979]

I already sent the letter yesterday but I’ll make a formal complaint this weekend.

I am annoyed because the payment was due after we sent the VT letter yet before they told us they wouldn’t accept it.

If they do put an adverse marker on her credit file and I then later won at either Ombudsman or Court, do they also have to remove the marker?