Issues with Voluntary Termination

[MargaretWal]

I gave voluntary termination on 30th August 2018. They have delayed the collection of the vehicle for one reason or another and then did agree the £79 fee but then delaying again the collection until finally on 23rd October they said could not collect the car as it now needed an MOT. I have told them the car has been available for collection MOT'd and taxed and insured since 30th August and it has taken them this long. Seems they dragged their feet intentionally as I have been in regular contact to arrange collection. They are now saying if I don't MOT it they cannot collect the car and will repossess the car which will have worse consequences to me. I understood that as sooon as I terminated the contract that they then owned the car and took advice from DVLA o told me to transfer the ownership back to PSA finanace which I did. I technically then do not own the car but PSA say because it is still in my possession I am still under contract and must MOT it. How can I MOT a car that is no longer mine?
Can anyone help or advise?
Thanks.

[MargaretWal]

First time user of the site and desperate for some help on a VT issue. Can rob help with this please? Company now saying will repossess the car even though VT notice sent, ownership transferred back to them via DVLA as they deem as sat on my drive I have possession. They've had over 2 months to organise collection and are still playing games. Thanks

[Amethyst]

I'll move your posts to the motoring finance area and hopefully R0b or someone else will look in xxx

[ostell]

You are correct in that there is now no contract in place and therefore a repossession is not possible as they are the owners of the vehicle.

There is a process, and there is a template here, that tells them that if they don't collect their goods within so many days then you will have the right to sell the goods yourself at auction and forward them the balance after costs. And in the meantime the use of your drive is £30 per day.

Did you compete their VT form or did you use the template from this site? I believe that there is no requirement to pay for the collection.

I'm not the expert on this but a man that is will be along soon and I've asked some of the questions he would have asked.

[R0b]

Hello

First things first, on a hire purchase agreement you never own the goods. What happens is that the seller (in this case the dealership) will sell the car directly to the finance company who will in turn hire it out to you over a period of time. A hire purchase agreement is simply long term hire contract with the option to purchase the vehicle at the end of that period, or to return it. So the car never belonged to you, the owner was always PSA.

On the face of what you've said in your post, PSA have nobody but themselves to blame if they didn't collect the car following termination. Two months is more than a reasonable amount of time and as already mentioned, once the agreement is terminated, any responsibility other than to ensure that the vehicle is not damaged, rests with PSA.

That said, it would be unreasonable of you to VT the agreement close to the expiry of the MOT and not inform PSA of that. It would be a plausible argument for PSA to say that had you notified them of this, then they would have made arrangements a lot sooner to collect it. As you've not told us the expiry date of the MOT I am only speculating and giving you an example of what they could say and for future reference, if you do VT an agreement then its better to inform them of something like this than to keep it in the dark as a judge would expect you to act reasonably.

Anyway, based on what you've said, it does not surprise me that PSA have dragged their feet and it would sound like they are more to blame than you are. Ostell is right in that they cannot "repossess" the vehicle because the agreement has already terminated. Repossession can only occur if you are breach of the agreement and you surrender it voluntarily, or if you haven't paid 1/3 of the total price or they get a Court Order allowing them to repossess.

There needs to be a shake up in this industry regarding VT and its becoming increasingly clear that finance companies are making it unnecessarily difficult for people to exercise their right. I think you need to make a formal complaint to PSA finance and I would probably be minded to write to the Financial Conduct Authority too, about their failure (in my opinion) to comply with the Treat Customers Fairly principle. The FCA does not take on individual complaints but if it receives enough complaints about regulated finance companies it may very well carry out an investigation.

I think you should also look at making a subject access request (free of charge now) and ask for all personal data they hold on you including those call recordings. It is wrong of them to say you are still under contract when you are not and this is typical of those front line employees to scare you into thinking that. I almost suspect its a policy of the business to say that as people on here keep saying the same thing. If you can remember when you spoke to them it would be helpful to list the dates and estimate of time to assist them. That should back up your case and also you could pass on any relevant evidence to the FCA.

In addition to your formal complaint, you could also do as Ostell has suggested and give them notice of your intention to sell the car if its not collected. That usually prompts them to come within a week. Alternatively, if the car is on your property such as a driveway or garage, you could go down the route of threatening them to put the car on a public highway as the vehicle no longer has permission to sit on your land and continuing to do so would amount to a trespass. If they didn't collect it by X date then all liability and responsibility rests with PSA.

Either option tends to work and they are usually out before you know it. If you want any feedback on your complaint letter, post up a draft on here.

[MargaretWal]

Thanks so much Rob and Ostell.

I have followed much of the advice on the site here, in terms of letters of notification etc and not signing any VT paperwork from them and resisting any early charges they were saying they wanted to levy and could charge later. I have emailed and sent letters recorded from the outset.

The car was bought from new 3 years ago, so was only due its first MOT on 11th October. As I gave them notice on 30th August, I never thought we'd still be here trying to resolve this. As you might expect, I have been passed from pillar to post between them and Manheim (I have all the dates of calls and correspondence logged), all the time thinking would get the car collected anytime, so certainly have not purposely not told themm about MOT tax and insurance. I rang them on the 4th October as they kept asking for a payment for them to collect it (I refused to drive it long distance to a Manheim depot along with our other car to return it). As they said unless I paid it could stay on our drive I asked for it to be registered as a formal complaint. (I did say on that call that I was thinking of charging them for the time it was left there). They did refer it as a complaint, I followed up with that in writing and detailed re my grievances on the way they have dealt with me. I had a response from their customer care team who said they have 56 days to formally respond (they have mentioned that in later calls too). I said that I am prepared to take this to the FOS/FCA and know that I can only do this if I'm unhappy with their final response.

I did remind them re MOT etc on the 4th, verbally and in writing, but as I said, I had expected it to be collected well before - my letter of notification on 30th August specifically referred to them contacting me within 14 days to arrange collection and surely from their records of the car they must have known that an MOT would be due?

My last letter (7th November) and email to them stated that I could not see how they could repossess a car that they owned and outlined why the recent dialogue and further prevarication had created yet more stress and has added to my complaint. I reminded them that it had been 69 days since my formal letter of termination and told them that the car had to be collected in the next 7 days. I have not had a response to this correspondence.

This morning, I had a call from some chap from Wrights Recoveries, saying they want to 'collect' the car this coming Monday. In principle, it would be finally off my drive... but I'm now wondering/worried (their threat that this route has worse consequences) if this is now a formal repossession (esp being Wrights rather than Manheim) and what the consequences and ramifications of this will be. Can you advise how I should approach this? Will he turn up with a court order? I have paid well over half as needed.

I am readying my complaint to FOB and have copious notes, thanks for the other tips too. You are right on what you say about front line tactics (based on lots of other peoples experiences you read here too).

Many thanks again both.

[ostell]

It could be a recovery as the car has no MOT so it will be loaded on a flat bed. As the car belongs to the Finance company then it cannot be a repo. Wrights Recoveries do repossess but they also offer a service of moving vehicles. Perhaps a phone call to them to find out what they are actually doing. I think if it was a repo then they would just turn up.

Get the car in pristine condition and take many photos, both inside and out with a copy of that day's or the day before's newspaper to give a dateline.

[MargaretWal]

rob and at ostell

Oh dear, have I just been stupid and undone all I have done to date? The recoveries people have just been and before leaving he said he can't take the vehicle without me signing for it. The form of theirs said that I would be liable for shortfall and then I had to sign a PSA form effectively saying the same thing. He said unless I signed he could not take it away and would have to drive back to Birmingham without it. He said that he would have to return with a court order for the repossession and that would just increase costs. He said best to fight it out with PSA once they try to recover costs, fight it out in court
(his words) although he pointed out probably wouldn't go that far.

To say I had got this far, not signing or agreeing to anything - but it worried me that it would increase costs a lot more. What can I do?

[R0b]

So have you signed it the paperwork?

[MargaretWal]

Signed the Wrights collection/vehicle check form which referred to the levy of shortfall on what owed and a very brief PSA one that effectively said the same. I just felt was blackmailed into signing it there and then. No chance to think or check as he would have to come back with a court order and all of that would inflate costs further. Think I've just been duped.

[R0b]

You've certainly been duped into signing the paperwork, though I have to admit I can't say I have much sympathy for you. You've clearly read the information on this forum and no doubt about the tactics used by finance companies and agents to get you to sign their documentation and what you should do about it. He was never going to come back with a court order because you weren't being obstructive in refusing to hand it over to him. So I'm afraid you've fell into the same trap as many others have done - threatened with court and costs and you panic then end up signing the paperwork. I assume you never scribbled over it to say that you are signing under duress and didn't take a photograph of it?

Either way, their paperwork is unlawful in so far as any fees that aren't recoverable as a result of the limited liability under Section 100 of the CCA i.e. collection fees or excess mileage but that might not extend to paying any costs for vehicle damage because of you having signed the paperwork. So I won't lie, you may have an uphill struggle in trying to overturn anything you've signed even more so if you take it to the Financial Ombudsman because they have a signed piece of paper from you. The only option may be court, if it gets to that stage.

I can only suggest that you kickstart a complaint to PSA setting out what happened and it was signed under duress. You should also include the name of the agent who came to collect the car too. I would also suggest you write to the FCA and make a complaint about the conduct of the agent acting on behalf of PSA, although they won't take on your complaint they may file it just in case further complaints are made. Again, you have a harder time proving things if you were the only person there and nobody else to witness what had gone on.

It's probably now a case of wait and see how PSA come back, but I doubt they won't be using that signed piece of paper against you, but that was a choice you made and now you can only do your best to defend it.

[MargaretWal]

Thanks Rob. I think I just panicked re the escalating costs the man said would be incurred, this visit and next one etc. My husband was here and he said should refuse to sign. It was stressful for me and as the representative was so insistent of the consequences. Even when I said if he did not take the car today I would put it out on the street, he said I was still responsible for any damage. My husband argued the contrary with him (it wouldn't be on our property), the chap was adamant. I guess I was so worried and in the heat of the moment.My husband even said if I signed I should write on the paperwork that it was under duress, but the guy refused to allow me to do so.

We took pictures of the paperwork and the condition report did not refer to any faults or damage, in fact the man said it was rare for him to pick up a car in such good condition. As you say, will get on and write, at least to put on record that this was done under duress and was completely misinformed (duped dishonestly) by their representative. Will write to both FOB and FCA re the behaviours in this whole case.

Thank you so much to both yourself and Ostell for the support you have shown - sorry to let you and myself down at the last minute>

[R0b]

The finance companies and agents of theirs are there to do a job and will usually do or say whatever it takes to get what they need from you. The exact same principle applies when you have debt collectors chasing for an outstanding debt, as long as they get what is needed, they won't worry much about anything else until after the event.

The fact that he refused to let you mark the document as signing under duress just goes to show how underhand this all is. There's many ways you could have gone about this and you could have even called PSA and said to them if it isn't taken away then you will dump it on the street. If you had held your ground, that would have likely prompted them to tell the agent to take it away without paperwork or risk worse.

To re-iterate, there is no legal obligation for you to sign any paperwork no matter the circumstances or what anyone says.

I wouldn't pin your hopes on any positive outcome from PSA regarding your complaint nor the Ombudsman but you should definitely document it as you may need to rely on it at a future date. Hopefully, the car being in good condition means you won't get any charges levied against you but it is rare for finance companies not to charge for something however small it might be so do bear that in mind.

To get you started, I've attached a working draft of a template letter to the FCA regarding the conduct of finance companies. You would need to tailor the background paragraph but the rest of it regarding the other paragraphs would largely remain relevant.

You could also send a similar letter to PSA and make it clear within the letter that you are also writing to the FCA concerning their conduct and the agent's for which they are responsible for.

If you need any feedback on your letters post up a draft and one of us will comment on it.

[MargaretWal]

Thanks so much Rob. I will do as you suggest in writing to both the FCA and the company about their (and their representatives) behaviour.

Do you also have a template as a basis to help with a complaint to the Ombudsman?

[Carolr1608]

Can some one help me. My so. a letter to Marsh finance to voluntarily terminate his agreement for his car on 1st April. It was emailed to them and I know they received the email as I had a reply from them asking for my son to call them. Unfortunately my son works long hours so has been unable to call them, and has sent further emails to them asking them to confirm they have received the letter and advise when they will be collecting the car.

he also advised them how much he had paid up to that date and asked them to confirm that he will have no further payment to make. So far he has had no reply from them. He has sent 3 reminders to them asking them to confirm in writing the information he has given them is correct, but they still won’t reply.

he doesn’t want to make another payment on the car as he has just changed his job and is jo longer using the car.

Can he be made to make any further payments if they are ignoring his requests and haven’t arranged collection of the car. He still has the V5 for the car in his name, can he send that back to them with their details being shown as the new owner. The mot was done on the car in December.

what can he do as he is starting to panic they will try to take the money off him again this month.