VT Issues

[kezyvette]

Good afternoon, I hope it is okay to start a new thread here, R0b ?

I have VT'd my car and would like to ask a few questions before contacting FCA Automotive Services regarding the claims that they are requesting.

To cut a long story short, I enquired about the possibility of VT mid September.

When I took out the finance for the vehicle I was never given a copy of the agreement (only the new car order form, registration information, information about GAP insurance and the service plan that I took out).

As I was never given the agreement pages, I asked FCA for a copy to be sent to me which they did. I have attached a copy of this (Agreement 1, 2 and 3).

After reading the agreement that they sent, the relevant box regarding termination says
'TERMINATION: YOUR RIGHTS
You have a right to end this agreement. To do so, you should write to the person you make your payments to. They will then be entitled to the return of the goods and to half the total amount payable under this agreement, that is £7,442.16. If you have already paid at least this amount plus any overdue instalments and have taken reasonable care of the goods, you will not have to pay any more.'

So it seemed very straight forward. I knew that I had paid more than 50% so I called them to begin the process.

On the phone they then informed me that I owed £219.01 for 'value added products' and said that this was the GAP insurance. I explained that having been paying monthy installments for 3 years of the 4 year agreement £219.01 seemed a very high amount to still owe and requested that they send me a breakdown of exactly how the £219.01 existed. The person that I spoke to confirmed my e-mail address (having e-mailed me the agreement earlier that day) and said that they would send the information through.

I will attach the e-mail thread that followed (email 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 part 1 and 2 and 8) during which I am quoted 2 different prices for the 'value added products' - £219.01 and £218.96. They have also given various figures that don't seem to add up such as stating that £399.00 and £50.68 equals £450.00 which it doesn't. Also note that in 'email 3' they have used the incorrect title of 'Mr' and I don't know what 'email 4' is about, as they have recalled an email before I had chance to see it.

I will also attach the Ts and Cs (21473278 - T&Cs) that they attached in the e-mail thread however, as I stated, I was never given any Ts and Cs when I took out the finance and the ones they have sent me are dated August this year and not signd by myself (because I was never shown any or given any).

I carried on with the VT process using one of your template letters which I e-mailed on 29/9/18 and sent in the post (a copy of this is also attached 'VT letter'). I recieved e-mail confirmation of acceptance of VT on 1/10/2018 and on 2/10/2018 they sent through details of the collection company that the case had been passed to. I then replied to this using one of your templates. A copy of this is attached ('Collection email). I took photographs of the vehicle on the day that I sent the VT letter and the vehicle was not used again until the collection company took it away.

I contacted Manheim and arranged the collection myself (the earliest that they could do this was 8/10/2018) and my husband was present while they conducted the assessment. They found things that we did not agree with (such as a chip in the windscreen) and the collection man advised us to sign to say that we disagreed with his findings so this was what my husband did. We haven't recieved evidence/documentation from the collection department.

Yesterday (2/11/2018) I recieved a letter from FCA but this was dated 24/10/2018. This claims that I now owe £219.44 for the 'multipart settlement' and £550.99 in 'damage recharges' and collection fees. A copy of this letter is also attached (FCA letter 1 and 2).

I am not sure what to do going forward. I only recieved the letter from FCA on 2/11/2018 but as their letter was dated 24/10/2018 and gave me 14 days, that only leaves me 3 days to act.

My understanding from previous threads is that I am not liable for the £550.99 but that the £219 ISH is not as clear? I obviously don't want to pay anything that I shouldn't and I don't have lots of money!!

Thanks so much in advance (and sorry for the long message - hopefully it has all the information you need!!)

[kezyvette]

Here are the rest of the emails (I was limited to 6 attachments in the previous post)

[kezyvette]

Here are the rest of the attachments that I mentioned (Ts and Cs and letters)

[kezyvette]

R0b , pt2537 and advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance!

[R0b]

Hello

I'm afraid I can't see some of those emails as they aren't enlarged enough but the gist of your issue is that you are being charged £219.44 for GAP insurance and then £550.99 for supposed vehicle damage (and collection fees?).

First of all, you've not mentioned how old the vehicle is and what the current mileage is or whether you are the sole owner. It would be helpful to know this background information as it can support your argument.

Dealing with the £550.99 fees, I think you need to have a break down of what these charges are for and it is not unreasonable to ask FCA a itemisation of the charges so you can review them in order to establish whether you agree or not. It is not right to say that charges for vehicle damage are irrecoverable because if you haven't took reasonable care of it, then FCA are entitlted to some compensation. It's subjective and it's certainly not automatic as FCA have to prove that (a) the damage was beyond reasonable wear and tear and (b) that the damaged occurred whilst it was in your possession.

The latter is almost always difficult for finance companies to prove where the vehicle is second hand because none of them take photographs prior to it behing handed over to you. Therefore, you could simply argue that it is up to them to prove the damage happened on your watch as opposed to a previous owner. This is why you should always take photographs at the beginning of the hire period and also at the end so you can compare and prove what damage was done (if any) by you.

Collection fees however, are not recoverable as it goes above and beyond your limited liability when you exercised your right to VT the agreement.

The GAP insurance charges are a little more trickier and very difficult to understand in practice and whether or not you are required to pay the fees. A very simple explanation would be something like this, all consumer credit regulated agreements requires companies to supply certain pre-contractual information prior to entering into the agreement and failing to do so means the agreement is improperly executed and therefore unenforceable unless a court orders otherwise.

Where multiple products are amalgamated into one single document, the question is whether the transaction (not the credit itself) falls into two separate categories. What I mean by separate categories, is restricted use and unrestricted use credit or running account credit or a fixed sum credit. If the two are considered separate, then Section 18 of the Consumer Credit Act says that each of the products would require separate documentation e.g. one set of documentation for the hire purchase credit and another set for the GAP insurance. Arguably, the GAP and HP credit are fixed sums of credit and are also for a restricted purpose so applying the above, it would appear that the transaction is not a multiple agreement and as such, the limitation of liability under S.100 of the CCA kicks in and means you should not be liable for the GAP insurance. It is also possible that a Court might decide that they are separate agreements in which case FCA would need to provide the required documentation and pre-contract information for the GAP insurance as well as the HP credit, otherwise the GAP insurance arrangement is unenforceable - I am assuming you never received separate pre-contractual documentation for GAP insurance?

As you can see, the vehicle and collection fees are relatively straight forward but the GAP insurance is more difficult to answer. So really its up to you to decide whether you want to defend your position or you could perhaps make an offer to settle that amount either partially or in full. Also if you know the GAP provider you could contact them and seek a pro-rated refund to offset the amount being claimed.

Hope that helps.

[kezyvette]

Hello, thank you for your reply.

It there another way that I can upload the emails to make them clearer?

The vehicle is coming up to 3 years old and I have been the sole owner.

Yes, that’s right - £219.44 for ‘multipart settlement’ for GAP and then £550.99 for 6 bits of ‘damage’, excess mileage and a collection fee.

I appreciate that one bit of damage could be classed as beyond reasonable care/wear and tear as someone caused a small scratch to the car while it was parked and I was not present so was unable to contact the owner of the other car that caused the damage. I did wonder about offering to pay the £48 they have claimed as a result of this piece of damage??

I took numerous (50+) photographs of the condition of the vehicle when I stopped using it prior to it being collected and I don’t feel that the damage that they have listed such as scuffs to alloys and a chip on the windscreen would be more than reasonable wear and tear for a 3 year old vehicle.

I didn’t receive any paperwork from Fiat at the time of taking out the finance agreement for the finance agreement or for a separate agreement for the GAP. The GAP is shown on the agreement that I have since been sent by FCA so could this be argument for them being not multiple agreement?

I contacted the GAP company when this first began and the insurance was only for a year so expired in 2016 which was a surprise as it was my understanding that GAP insurance lasts for the duration of the finance agreement.

What I find odd is that at no time have FCA been able to clearly explain where the sum of £219 ish comes from and each time I ask I get different sums!

Thanks,

Kerin

[kezyvette]

Thanks for your reply R0b - addressed your points above...

[kezyvette]

R0b I also forgot to say, I took out the agreement on 14/11:2015 with mileage of 8,000 a year. When I returned the vehicle on 8/10/2018 it had a recorded mileage of 24,828 so part of the £550.99 is £0.06x1,495 = £89.70

[R0b]

I think all you can do is make a formal complaint to FCA about what you've said and challenge the costs being charged, especially the GAP insurance. You should be pointing out to them that you expected the GAP insurance to cover the whole term of the hire purchase which is the point of taking it out and in fact it was for only one year. Therefore you feel you have been misrepresented by the sales advisor at the time who was acting on FCA's behalf. You can also point out that at ni point during the Agreement did FCA send the contract to you and so the agreement has been improperly executed which as a result, is not enforceable unless a court orders otherwise.

you also need to decide whether you are challenging the rest of the fees too.

[kezyvette]

Hello again R0b

Some update - I decided to use your templates (I put a few together to address a number of things that I was disputing)... This was my e-mail to them on 21/11/2018 having emailed on 2 other occasions and not had a reply:


'Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Voluntary Termination

Agreement Number:
Vehicle Registration:

I am writing to you with reference to the above matter and your letter dated 24/10/2018 (to which I have replied on 2 separate occasions - 5/11/2018 and 12/11/2018 and heard nothing back). Please note that liability in relation to the alleged outstanding balance for excessive damage to the vehicle, collection fees and excess mileage is denied.

The vehicle was maintained in a reasonable condition throughout the period of the agreement and therefore such damage charges you are claiming would amount to fair wear and tear; the vehicle does not need to be returned to you in any better condition other than a reasonable one. Photographic evidence was taken prior to the vehicle being transferred to you which clearly shows that the vehicle was in a reasonable condition. The onus is on you to prove that the alleged damage caused was more than reasonable fair wear and tear.

I am under no obligation to pay any fees for excess mileage or collection of the vehicle. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 explicitly states that, my liability under the agreement is limited to half the total amount payable and any terms under the agreement which imposes additional liability directly or indirectly is strictly prohibited by the Act.

In any event, such sums you are alleging to be owed may only be recovered by a court order only and should you wish to pursue this matter in court, your application will be strongly defended.

Please confirm by return that you agree this matter is now closed.

Yours faithfully, '




I then received an e-mail back about an hour later that was in reply to my second e-mail to them on 12/11 when I requested a copy of the damages report. They attached this report that breaks down the damages and charges with photographs however none of the photographs are big at all and you are unable to enlarge any of them.


I then received an e-mail on 5/12/2018 as follows:

'Dear ,



Thank you for your email.



Firstly our apologies for the delay in your dispute case.



We have reviewed the travelling conditions between your address & the auction site, due to the time taken we have removed the collection fee.



In relation to the excess mileage please note the Common Law of Misrepresentation allows the business to recover costs associated with unexpected
depreciation in the event that the customer has exceeded the mileage allowance at any point in the contract and terminates early. As such we are within our
rights to recover the loss associated with this based on the fact that they potentially misrepresented their intended use of the vehicle. This confirms that we are eligible
to charge this for VT customers. Exceeding the agreed mileage allowance can be seen to be the customer contravening the agreement to take care of the goods as
agreed. Therefore we are able to charge consumers if they have not adhered to their mileage allowance and have breached the terms of the finance company as well as
law of misrepresentation.





You have contractual arrears of £219.44 for the outstanding balance for the Value added products (VAP’s) you purchased via a straight loan. Your Finance

Agreement has two contracts the first is a hire Purchase Loan for purchasing the vehicle, the latter a straight loan to purchase VAP’s, in both instances

FCA paid the dealership upfront, the dealership would then pay the VAP’s provider (Insurance/Warranty company).



On the first page of your Finance agreement it stated that for each monthly payment of £205.56 it would be split across the two contacts as (£198.99 / £6.57 ). The

straight loan is not covered by the VT legislation & the O/S balance becomes due if a customer chooses to VT.











Your VT request letter stated that VAP’s need to be settled.













Prior to starting the VT, you were sent a VT Request letter that stated if the vehicle is returned then the inspector would use the
BVRLA guidelines to determine damages.



The BVRLA set the inspection guidelines, the auction houses set the prices, it’s not in their interest to inflate prices as they want the best price at sale.



Issues should be rectified prior to returning the vehicle.



We have reviewed the inspection report (attached), the Front Screen charge has been removed.



Dents on body panels exceeding 10mm or paintwork exposed are not permitted by the BVRLA.

Scratches/Scuffs on body panels exceeding 25mm or paintwork exposed are not permitted by the BVRLA.

Scuffs on wheel trims exceeding 50mm (whole circumference) or any damage to spokes are not permitted by the BVRLA.

The BVRLA guidelines state the costs maybe the actual repair costs or the loss of value cost.



As a goodwill gesture we previously removed £180.39 from your charges.



Your O/S balance is £590.14.





What Next



You may contact our collection function (0333-207-5582) to pay by debit card, request a repayment plan or alternately make
a bank transfer using the details below:



Payee:
Account number:
Sort code:
Reference:



If you feel that we won’t be able to reach a satisfactory resolution then you may contact the conciliation service of the BVRLA by visiting
their website below:

http://www.bvrla.co.uk/

“We are members of the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA). All vehicles returned to FCA Automotive are inspected in line with the British Vehicle Renting and Leasing Association fair wear and tear guidelines. This ensures that all customers are treated fairly with regard to any potential charges upon the vehicle return. Unresolved complaints may be referred to them by visiting their website www.bvrla.co.uk”



The BVRLA is approved by Government as a Consumer ADR body under the Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015.



Kind regards, '



I was just looking to get your opinion of this. One of the parts of damage I accept is more than 'reasonable' for a 3 year old car and I would be willing to pay this damage in the format of your templates I have seen.

Many thanks in advance.

[R0b]

In the templates thread, there is an updated response in relation to excess mileage charges - it's letter number 2 I think at the top.

The response about common law of misrepresentation is a template response which FCA don't really have a clue about and are clutching at straws. They responded to another person who exercised their VT right a while ago with the same reply.

There's an example response to that in the thread (click here) at post #11 and their response at post #13.

You might be best combining both those letters as a robust response and if you need any feedback, post up your draft here for comment.

[kezyvette]

Thank you very much R0b - I will start to put a response together now from the templates you have suggested and post back when it is finished. This has been really helpful.

With regards to the damage charges, am I right in thinking that I can address these in terms of the BVRLA using guidelines that are set out for commercial vehicles and it is not reasonable to hold a vehicle used for personal use to the same standard and that by having the work done it has put the vehicle in a condition that is better than 'reasonable'? I think I saw a few people writing to this effect in previous threads?

Many thanks in advance!!

[kezyvette]

Hi R0b

Just putting the finishing touches to my letter and then I will update.

However, I have just been doing some internet searches and found the car in question for sale and one of the images of it shows damage that I am being expected to pay for. I was wondering where I stand on this?

Thanks

Kerin

[tobster911]

Sorry, haven't read through everything, but I know about the £219. This is a separate contract with FCA, and is not liable to VT. The monthly payments you make are made up of the majority is the car, and a small amount for the VAPs. On mine, it was £195 for the car, and £12 for the VAPs. The VT is only applicable for the car, so you do, unfortunately, need to pay for the VAPS, as you've only been paying a few £££ per month for this.

[kezyvette]

tobster911 thanks, is this true even if the GAP insurance wasn't explained fully and I was unaware that this was only for a 1 year cover? I never would have taken the cover if I didn't think it was for the duration of the lease, what would be the point?
I also paid ~£1250 deposit. Surely I could argue that this deposit covered the cost of the GAP insurance in full?
Finally I was never shown or given copies of any terms and conditions and did not receive a copy of my own agreement? I had to request this at the time of enquiring about VT.