PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

**mystery1** · 16th June 2015, 20:07:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

The systems usually work but not always. It would appear your notice to keeper was late (14 days) but it also appears you told them you were the driver

If they reject your appeal, post the notice, signs etc and i'll sort popla for you.

M1

**dstothard69** · 16th June 2015, 20:11:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Doh! Yes I have.

Do you require pictures of the signage in the car park, the meter machine, etc? The parking was only £1 for 2 hours which I paid how can they justify £60 I don't know

Cheers

Damian

**mystery1** · 16th June 2015, 21:57:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

I always advise to collect as much info as possible in case matters progress further than expected.

Don't need anything unless/until you get your appeal result but you should get the pics asap.

M1

**dstothard69** · 16th June 2015, 22:03:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

OK will do

Thank you again for agreeing to help. Do you reckon I have a chance if it went to popla?

**mystery1** · 16th June 2015, 22:08:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Very much so.

M1

**dstothard69** · 17th June 2015, 09:05:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Morning M1

I have been back to the car park in question this morning taking pictures and I now know why CEL have issued a PCN.

It is due to the 10 minute rule on the notice board which states that I must pay the fee within 10 minutes of entering the Car park, which now thinking I probably didn't do this. This was because I had no change so had to go into the restaurant where the family and I were eating to get some change first! This was evidently more than 10 minutes after parking.

I remember clearly now that I paid £1.50 which entitles me to upto 4 hours parking but we only stayed for 1h34m so I over paid considerably on the fee

I am pretty sure now that CEL will reject my appeal on these grounds so I feel it maybe prudent to start preparing my appeal through POPLA (So once I receive the POPLA number I can send this). I have attached photos and the PCN as requested

This is so unfair because the 10 minute clause is tiny on the notice and the notice is quite high on the boards around the car, but it wasn't until I got to the pay machine where the board is lower did I see this clause (which in theory would be too late if I was paying the parking fee at that time).

I really appreciate all you help with this, especially since in my opinion I have paid the required fee and a simple late payment has caused this ridiculous situation

Cheers

Damian

Attached Files

**mystery1** · 17th June 2015, 09:32:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Popla will be a slightly altered version of http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...427#post542427

M1

**dstothard69** · 17th June 2015, 09:39:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Hi M1

So do I need to alter this at all or just simply complete the paper work using the above link content as justification given

Have you a link to the POPLA document so I can again complete this ready to send off once I receive the reference number from CEL?

Thank you

**mystery1** · 17th June 2015, 09:43:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

It'll need edited to reflect your situation although most of it will be unchanged. We will also add the notice to keeper being late and hope they don't realise you told them who was driving. It's not a big job and you get 28 days.

https://www.popla.org.uk/appeal.htm

M1

**dstothard69** · 17th June 2015, 09:49:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

I didn't technically say how was driving just that I paid for the parking and I was out with my family (my wife is insured to drive on the vehicle too)

Could you send me the wording you recommend for the notice to keeper element please

Thank you

Damian

**mystery1** · 17th June 2015, 10:56:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

6. Keeper liability.

The protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 allows the opportunity for parking companies liable for the actions of the driver but only if full compliance is achieved. In the case of an ANPR situation compliance with section 9 is required.

Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle

4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met ....

6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—

(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

The notice to keeper is outwith the timeframe allowed and does not specify a period of parking. The notice merely indicates a time of entry in to the car park and an exit time from the car park. The BPA code of practice makes reference to the fact that entry is not parking and dictates a grace period must be allowed partly for this very reason. As the keeper is not the person who was driving the keeper cannot know what the period of parking is and the legislation dictates it must be specified, presumably for that very reason. In Woodchester v Swayne & Co [1998] EWCA Civ 1209 (14 July 1998) it was held that the specified information required to be provided by legislation should indeed be accurate and that the failure made the relevant notice invalid. It was also the deciding factor in Parking Eye v Mrs X Case No: 3JD08399 IN THE ALTRINCHAM COUNTY COURT.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/c289944f81b4...&alloworigin=1

Sections E & F has not been complied with at all. Other sections are not totally complied with either. The keeper is not invited to pay.

M1

**dstothard69** · 17th June 2015, 11:05:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Thank you once again

I have updated the POPLA statement changing a few elements around purpose of the car park, fees paid and duration stayed and pushing the fact of the 10 minute rule not being at all obvious on the signs especially upon entry to the car park (as you say not to the BPA guidelines)

I will await to here from CEL. You never know they may feel considering I paid 4 hours for 1h34m parking so did pay and was only minutes over the 10 minute rule they will accept my appeal and cancel the PCN (lol pigs may fly too). Either way I am sure considering all the points made there is enough justification for POPLA to side with me and throw a ridiculous unjust £100 penalty

Btw do you know if CEL are renowned for not accepting initial appeals?

Cheers

Damian

**mystery1** · 17th June 2015, 11:08:AM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Pretty much all private parking companies refuse most original appeals. Sometimes with a receipt Parking Eye cancel.

M1

**dstothard69** · 2nd July 2015, 18:33:PM

Re: PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

Hi M1

I got the expected rejection to my appeal letter from CEL today.

The PCN is as thought due to the fact that I didn't pay within 10 minutes of arriving at the Car Park and even though I actually paid for 4 hours but only used a total of 1h 34m they still didn't see that as adequate justification not to uphold the PCN. Pathetic really!!

I have submitted the appeal to POPLA using the script you gave me as guidance (amended it to fit my situation a little more specifically) including the following evidence: picture of the signage high up on a post, a picture of the entrance to the car park showing the very small notice/sign which I can't read from my car, a copy of the original PCN and a copy of the appeal rejection letter I just received.

I guess the waiting game commences

Do you know how long it normally takes to hear back from POPLA?

Thank you again for all your assistance on this

Cheers

Damian

PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd

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