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Should I Pay Unsucessfully Appealed UKPC Charge?

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  • Should I Pay Unsucessfully Appealed UKPC Charge?

    Hello, I am new to this forum and was wondering if anyone can provide some advice.

    I was working on a site where staff needed a permit to park. This was by way of a virtual permit, not a paper one. The site manager emailed concierge requesting a permit on day 1. I don't know what this email said so on day 2 a second email was sent by a different manager. The request was for a permit to be issued but unfortunately in this email no dates were mentioned. On day 3 I received a charge. On day 4 another email was sent to concierge requesting a permit to the end of the month. I appealed to UK Parking Control stating that their reason for issuing a charge was that there was no permit displayed and I stated the above adding that no physical permits existed for this site.

    They refused my appeal so I appealed to POPLA. UKPC's response was the same but in addition they provided screenshots of their online system. My response stands in that their reason for issuing etc. I also countered that UKPC's evidence that a permit was not in force is really only evidence that a permit had not been entered onto their system. Unfortunately, I do not know what the first email said and the second did not refer to dates so it is only the third email which was clear as to the dates. At no point in my time of working on this site did I display a physical parking permit. And at no other time did I receive a PCN.
    POPLA's decision was in favour of UKPC. Below is POPLA's response:

    "The appellant has been identified as the driver, as such I will be considering his liability for the PCN. The operator has provided photographic images of the signage which states: “NO UNAUTHORISED PARKING …TERMS OF PARKING APPLY AT ALL TIMES.” The signage also states: “Failure to comply with the following at any time will result in the issue of a £100 Parking Charge Notice being issued to the vehicle’s driver…a valid XXX Sales permit must be clearly displayed at all times.” The operator has provided photographic images of the appellant’s vehicle parked in the car park. The images are time stamped 16:45 on 1 March 2019 and show that there is no permit on display. The operator has provided a white list which shows that that no permit was requested or authorised for 1 March 2019. In this case the appellant has advised that that he had started work at XXX on 27 February 2019 and on that day a member of XXX emailed YYY Concierge requesting a permit be issued. The appellant says that this was actioned because he did not receive a ticket that day, the next day another email was sent to the site manager and confirmation was received that a permit had been issued. The appellant advises that on 1 March a PCN was raised despite this being the third day that the permit had been active. The appellant explains that this site has digital and not physical paper permits. The appellant says that the PCN has been issued for not displaying a permit which is not possible for this site. In response to the appellant’s comments I have reviewed the operator evidence and I can see that the signage does refer to the motorist displaying a valid permit. The operator has also enclosed copies of the relevant permits that would displayed within the car park. The appellant has argued that this site does not issue permits only digital ones, but he has not provided any evidence in support of this only an email dated 28 February 2018 which requests a permit be issued. The operator in this case has however also provided evidence in the form of a white list which shows that no permit was issued to the appellant’s vehicle on 1 March 2019 nor was the vehicle added to any exemption list. The operator has also photographic images of the appellant’s vehicle without a permit on display. Therefore, I am satisfied the appellant by remaining parked was immediately in breach of the terms and conditions for this site. I can see that the appellant has provided a copy of an email referring to a permit request made on 28 February 2019. However, this does not invalidate the PCN because I can see that this was sent to a third party which issues the permits and not the operator. Therefore, had any error been made with processing and issuing of the permit would lie with third party YYY Concierge and not the operator. POPLA is unable to investigate issues that have stemmed from a third party he may wish to therefore wish to raise a complaint with YYY Concierge about this issue. However, on this occasion I am satisfied for the reasons noted above that the PCN was issued correctly."

    Should I pay the charge or risk being taken to court?
    Thank you
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Hi & welcome to LB
    Did you at the time of receiving the PCN (or have you since) asked the employer to intercede with UKPC on your behalf?
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb


    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.


    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

    Comment


    • #3
      " No Unauthorised Parking" means that if you are not authorised, which is what they saying, then there was not an offer of a contract to park and therefore no breach of the non existent contract. It would be perverse to claim a contract existed when the action was specifically forbidden The only claim would be from the landowner for damages for trespass.

      Get a photo of those signs, there are many cases where parking claims have been thrown out.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello, apologies for not replying sooner.
        I didn't ask the employer to intercede, although in hindsight I know that is what I should have done. I honestly thought that letting UKPC know that I had a permit requested would resolve the misunderstanding. I am embarrassed at how naive I was. By the time they had responded, I had left the job.
        I have contacted POPLA to get the evidence provided by UKPC but they have removed it because the case is closed. I emailed requesting that they send it to me but they now say that it can take up to 30 days to get it sent. In the meantime, I have received a letter from UKPC saying that I have until 4th August to pay £100. If they put the debt in the hands of a debt collector it rises to £160. I can't afford to spend more money than I have to so feel that I am just going to have to pay it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SaraK View Post
          Hello, apologies for not replying sooner.
          I didn't ask the employer to intercede, although in hindsight I know that is what I should have done. I honestly thought that letting UKPC know that I had a permit requested would resolve the misunderstanding. I am embarrassed at how naive I was. By the time they had responded, I had left the job.
          I have contacted POPLA to get the evidence provided by UKPC but they have removed it because the case is closed. I emailed requesting that they send it to me but they now say that it can take up to 30 days to get it sent. In the meantime, I have received a letter from UKPC saying that I have until 4th August to pay £100. If they put the debt in the hands of a debt collector it rises to £160. I can't afford to spend more money than I have to so feel that I am just going to have to pay it.
          As the driver in this case has been ID'd, the Claimant can sue via common law breach of contract, thus avoiding PoFA 2012 & any technical defences which may have been possible under that legislation.
          Unless there is a problem with the landowner/parking co contract, imho the only thing which could provide a defence would be problems with the site signage.
          It would be for the judge to decide whether or not signage is adequate, so any opinions we have concerning the signs would be only that.....opinions.
          CAVEAT LECTOR

          This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

          You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
          Cohen, Herb


          There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
          gets his brain a-going.
          Phelps, C. C.


          "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
          The last words of John Sedgwick

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by charitynjw View Post

            As the driver in this case has been ID'd, the Claimant can sue via common law breach of contract, thus avoiding PoFA 2012 & any technical defences which may have been possible under that legislation.
            Unless there is a problem with the landowner/parking co contract, imho the only thing which could provide a defence would be problems with the site signage.
            It would be for the judge to decide whether or not signage is adequate, so any opinions we have concerning the signs would be only that.....opinions.
            I don't think that there was any problem with signage. I thought that the permit was in force for the whole week as I had not received any PCN for the previous days and that UKPC had just made a mistake.
            It sounds like I would be best to pay it and put it down to experience.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's up to you but it does sound as though the have not created a contract with the driver, need the signs, and you haven't provided a copy of the PCN that was received.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with ostell
                It would appear from your posts, & the POPLA response, that according to site signage a permit must be displayed.
                But in your case (& I imagine many others) it is not possible to do so, as there is issued, in your words, a 'virtual' permit which is then included in a 'white list'.
                If that is so, it is plainly impossible to adhere to the terms of the unilateral contract, those being on the relevant car park signage displayed at the relevant time, that being the requirement for a 'hard copy' permit to be displayed.
                'Impossibility' is a long-standing defence in contract law, dating back to Taylor v Caldwell (1863)
                Any chance of a pic of those signs?
                CAVEAT LECTOR

                This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                Cohen, Herb


                There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                gets his brain a-going.
                Phelps, C. C.


                "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                The last words of John Sedgwick

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yay! I got the information from POPLA. I am going to attempt to attach it. Thank you to everyone for your responses.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Imho, that site sign doesn't pass muster for a number of reasons.

                    What is the current status?
                    Is the parking co or their agent still pursuing this?
                    CAVEAT LECTOR

                    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                    Cohen, Herb


                    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                    gets his brain a-going.
                    Phelps, C. C.


                    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                    The last words of John Sedgwick

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                      Imho, that site sign doesn't pass muster for a number of reasons.

                      What is the current status?
                      Is the parking co or their agent still pursuing this?
                      Yes, I received a letter from them giving me until 3rd August to pay otherwise it would be passed over to debt collectors and the charge would increase to £750 (I think as I don't have the letter with me).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        £750?
                        CAVEAT LECTOR

                        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                        Cohen, Herb


                        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                        gets his brain a-going.
                        Phelps, C. C.


                        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                        The last words of John Sedgwick

                        Comment

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