**WON** Pcn code 46

[Gr8WhiteDope]

I recently moved and with no driveway i ususally park on the road since i wasn't aware of any restrictions when we moved in. In the last 3 weeks i've had 2 pcns both code 46. The first one i've already had an informal appeal rejected for though i thought i'd carry on parking outside while i appealed the ticket. The second one i caught the warden jsut after she printed it, she said i was on a urban clearway. I asked where the signage was for it and she idicated a lampost about 50 yards up the road. I asked her to show me so we walked there together and the sign has actually been turned to face the pavement (pic attached). No idea if it was this way round on the day i got the first ticket though i suspect so since i've never seen it face on when approaching from the road. I'm guessing the sign can't be enforcable since you'd have to stop to see it and once you do that you could already have committed an offence according to the signs manual.

With the first appeal all i had back as the councils supporting evidence was a google maps image showing the sign facing the oncoming traffic though there's nothing to indicate how old that image is.

Do i pay up or stick with the appeals?

Incidentally the sign is still facing the pavement nearly 2 weeks after the second ticket.

Those traffic lights on the left of the pic are tempory ones on the back of a trailer, the van attached to it got a ticket too.

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

Hello and welcome to the Forum.
You need to contact the council and ask them to show you the relevant Traffic Regulation Order.
The TRO is what you may not have complied with. The sign is irrelevant as long as it meets the Traffic Signs General Directions Rules.
If there is a current TRO for the road you parked on, you may be bang to rights.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

I already asked the council for it with the first appeal, received nothing back.

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

This has nothing to do with your appeal.
If you phone the council, or better still, go down to their customer service centre, they are obliged to comply with your reasonable request.
You might be amazed at how often stupid councils install signs without possessing a TRO for the road in question.
If there is no TRO, there is no contravention.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

Called and asked them. Now i'm waiting for an email.

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

Why?
They need to tell you at which of their offices, of YOUR CHOICE they will make the TRO available.
The Law is very clear. These are public documents and you have every right to view them.
The problem is that 99% of people, given parking tickets, just roll over and pay.
If everyone stood up there'd be sense prevailing.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

They offered to email a copy. I'll call them again if i don't see anything in the next couple of hrs. Thanks for the advice

[michael]

Re: Pcn code 46

Why?
They need to tell you at which of their offices, of YOUR CHOICE they will make the TRO available.

That only applies to viewing pcn video evidence, not TRO's.

Councils must make them available to view, but you don't get to choose where.

These days a lot of councils are prepared to email them , but they're not obliged to.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

Copy of the TRO came through this morning so it looks like i'll have to pay up.

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

Don't be hasty.
There's times on the plate.
Does the TRO specify exactly the place including the bit where you parked?
Does it specify the applicable times and were you parked at a time you shouldn't have been?
If all that looks OK, you can still make representations and you should point out then that the sign is facing the footpath, so you couldn't have viewed it while driving past.
The offer to pay at a reduced rate will still apply while they consider your representations.
If they refuse, you can then appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, and the photo of the sign facing the footpath should definitely win it for you.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

It doesn't specify the exact spot. It states London Road, Hadleigh. The road itself actually runs from Southend all the way into London, Hadleigh probably contains about a mile and a half of it.
It does state the time which is within when the sign shows (annoying since the first ticket was on a day i took off work so wouldn't have been there if I'd gone to work, the second was on a day when i got out of work early and got home earlier than usual).
So i still get the reduced rate after they serve the NtO even though the first appeal was rejected?

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

http://www.patas.gov.uk/
1. PCN received
2. NtO
3.Notice of Rejection
4. Charge cert.

You are allowed another 14 days from your notice of rejection to pay 50% of the fee.
Personally I'd appeal to PATAS. How were you supposed to see the sign turned towards the footpath?

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

That was my initial assessment after checking the sign and the traffic signs manual. You'd have to stop to check the sign and once you stop you've potentially commited the offence.

[sean5302]

Re: Pcn code 46

Exactly right.
If you send your info to the Adjudicator, or you can go in person if you wish, I honestly cannot see how you could lose.
That photograph is key.
http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/
Have a read of the judgements. You'll find pretty much all similar cases were decided in favour of your circumstances.
If you find several cases (sorry, I haven't time to search for you) you can quote the appeal case numbers and you're pretty much guaranteed to win.
Do please tell your friends about this Forum. There's some very good people here.

[Gr8WhiteDope]

Re: Pcn code 46

Thanks, i'll have a look to see what i can find in the morning. My neighbour got ticketed yesterday too though the sign is still facing the pavement. Thanks for all the advice.