Court Summons Gemini Parking PCN

[vjf2018]

Hi all,

I am hoping for some help.

I received a PCN from Gemini Parking Solutions in January 2017. The PCN was originally issued for not displaying a valid pay and display ticket in the car park of a local swimming pool. This was due to the parking machine not accepting the coins that were being used at the time. The ticket was issued while assistance was being sought in regards to the machine not accepting coinage!

I would like to add that members of the swimming pool actually get refunded for the majority of their pay and display ticket - the cost to park is £2 for 2 hours, and £1.80 of this is refunded. I am a member and regularly take advantage of this benefit.I initially disputed the PCN on several grounds, including the cost of the PCN, which absolutely does not reflect the loss of 20p to the parking company. I also raised points about the signage, which is of poor quality, not in close range to the ticket machine, is in very small lettering and is not lit - the ticket was issued on a dark evening. I also disputed whether Gemini Parking had an adequate contract with the land owners. I requested a POPLA code on several occasions, which was not provided. I disputed the PCN as the keeper of the car, not as the driver at the time.

Eventually I stopped receiving correspondence from them and assumed that the issue had been dropped. However, I have just received a claim form from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton regarding this PCN. I would be very grateful for advice on how to proceed. I have read through some of the forums, but would please like some specific advice applicable to my individual case if possible. I believe that I am to complete the acknowledgment of service - is this correct? I would like then to form a valid defence to hopefully have this thrown out of court. I would be very grateful for any help.

I have attached some pictures of the signage to give an idea of how appalling it is, and its contents.

I look forward to your replies!

Many thanks

[ostell]

First thing is to acknowledge the claim using the details and password provided. Do not put wnything in the defence. This gives you 33 days from date of issue to get your defence to the court.

On the sign who is GLL, the client for Gemini? Could this be council land? Have you contacted the manager of the facility to get it cancelled?

Post up the PCN received please, redacting identifying details but leaving dates.

[vjf2018]

Dear Ostell,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I will make sure I acknowledge the claim.

GLL (Greenwich Leisure Limited) are the company who own the fitness centre and swimming pool. I did try to contact the company head office some time ago but received no response. I will attempt to contact them again.

Unfortunately I do not have the original PCN issued. As it was issued in January 2017 and correspondence had stopped some months ago I had assumed that Gemini had stopped pursuing me and I did not hold on to the original PCN. I will check through my paperwork to see if I still have their replying correspondence to my letters.

Please can you advise on what steps I need to take next and what I should put in my defence?

Many thanks

[ostell]

Have a look at this page It hints an involvement with Greenwich Council. If this is council land, possibly with a Parking Places order on it, then it is not relevant land for the purpose of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable. The land appears to have been originally owned by the council and handed over to GLL for operational purposes. Check your local council, frequently this information is available on web pages. You are looking for land owned by the council but leased out.

Send a SAR to Gemini to request all the information they have about you including, specifically, the PCN. There's a template for a SAR on this website.

Who is raising the claim? Is it Gemini themselves or via a solicitor?

[vjf2018]

Dear Ostell,

I have been investigating and it is possibility that the fitness centre is owned by the LEA, as it part of a school building and the company that runs the leisure complex, GLL, work in close partnership with. the local council. In this case it isn't Greenwich Council, but I will be calling the school, the local authority and the management company of the leisure centre tomorrow to see if I can clarify who owns the land, as it isn't explicitly clear anywhere online.

If it is the case that it is council owned land, does this indicate a good chance of this case winning at court?

I have also sent emails to GLL to request their assistance with canceling the charge, but have not had any reply as of yet, which is what happened last time I approached them. I will try to contact them via telephone tomorrow.

I have found the SAR request form and will complete this and send it tomorrow. What do I do if they do not reply In a timely fashion, as I am sure they are aware that I only have 33 days to submit my defence?

The claim form has Gemini Parking Solutions as the claimant, but Gladstones Solicitors Limited as the 'Address for sending documents and payments', so it looks like they have raised the claim - does. this sound right. I am not familiar with court claim forms, apologies.

The particulars of the claim are:

The driver of the vehicle registration incurred the parking charge(s) on 20/01/2017 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at [ADDRESS OF LEISURE CENTRE]. The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the Keeper of the Vehicle.

Is it possible to start putting a defence together now, based on the information we have, in case Gemini do not respond to the SAR in suitable time? Is the signage a point of defence? And the inflated charge they demanded?

Thank you so much for all your guidance so far.

[des8]

You can find the owner of land here: https://www.gov.uk/search-property-i...-land-registry
cost £3 for map & £3 for title register

[ostell]

If it's council owned land then according to POFA paragraph 3 it is not relevant land and the keeper cannot be held liable so if they don't know the driver then they are well and truly lost. Only you know the location and can chase it. My local council had details of all land that they owned on a web page so perhaps you can find out from there. Here's a link to POFA

Yes it's a claim form, it has a claim number at the top and it's from Northampton. Yet again the particulars of claim are woefully inadequate and do not specify how the conditions were breached.

You might get the SAR back in time but if not then you have it for the next part of the court process.

[vjf2018]

Hi,

Thank you all for your responses.

So I managed to speak to the leisure centre and the school of which the leisure centre is a part of. The land was previously owned by the council but has since been 'leased back' (in the facilities manager's terms) to the school when the school became an 'academy' some years back. So technically the landlord is the school, but they explained it is more complicated than that as they have passed the rights over to GLL who are better equipped to manage a sports and fitness centre. The school, therefore, are unwilling to be involved with having the charge canceled.

I am waiting to hear back from the manager at the centre with regards to getting the charge canceled, but they said they were unlikely to get involved as it happened such a long time ago and are therefore unable to establish whether or not the machine was working at the time.

So in terms of land ownership and asking the centre to cancel the charge, these now seem like unviable options unfortunately.

I have completed an SAR to send, can I please ask if I should send this to Gemini, Gladstones, or both parties? I also wanted to ask if it is ok to send a copy of my driving license for ID purposes - I am concerned about giving them further personal information? And is it ok to email or do I need to send the SAR by post?

I have found the paperwork trail - I have letters from Gemini, and then numerous letters from Debt Recovery Plus and from Gladstone's. The only thing I do not have is the original ticket that was placed on the windscreen. Two letters from Gemini are replies to my requests for a POPLA code. They claim they did not receive an original challenge within 28 days of the Notice to Keeper. Unfortunately I can not find evidence of posting this, due to the length of time that has passed. However, I have other, later correspondence requesting a POPLA code, where I state that I am entitled to appeal at any point in the process. Gemini have directed me to Debt Recovery Plus Ltd for appeals at this point and did not provide a POPLA code based on their position that they did not receive an appeal within 28 days.

I have attached a screenshot of the original NTK below.

Is it possible to make a start on the defence? Do you have any templates I could use to start building a case? What points will I need to include? I would be really grateful for your help.

Thank you!

[vjf2018]

Notice to Keeper

[vjf2018]

Dear Ostell,

I was hoping you may have had a chance to look at my latest post and help me with putting together defence? Thank you for your help in advance.

[ostell]

Hunt round in this forum for defences There are plenty there. You need to understand your defence. The points about POFA are that sections that must be in the notice 8 (2) (e) and (f) are not as prescribed by the Act, indeed (f) in not clear about the timing and short changes you, 8 (2) (b) is not there at all, there is no identification of the creditor 8 (2) (h), no date of sending specified 8 (2) (i). As such there can be no keeper liability.

If there were keeper liability then the amount payable is limited to the amount on the PCN ie £100.

Your defence states that they have refused to consider the use of an Alternate Dispute Resolution process that was available to them. This will not go down well with the judge.

You query their contract with the landholder and the right to take legal action and request a copy of the contract.

The centre do not need proof that that the equipment was not working, they can cancel the actions of their contractor without reason.

So you have determined that the land is actually owned by the council and is leased by the centre. Have a a look at paragraph 3 of POFA and see what applys. If necessary see if there is a Parking Places Order on the place. Get the council to say that they are the landowner. You state that this land is owned by the council (which it presumably is) and therefore not relevant land for the purpose of POFA and therefore there can be no keeper liability.

Your SAR request should have gone off to Euro Parking. The solicitor will have nothing but you could send them a SAR as well, it's only the cost of a stamp. Get a free Certificate of Posting from a post office.

[SpikyHead]

Hi, VJF2018

Please keep posted. I'm on the same boat. I also tried to contact GLL, but they don't answer at all. I will try to phone them.
By the way, I saw the contract between Gemini and GLL in another site. GLL can drop the case, if they are willing.
We are regular customer and the charity-like organisation like GLL(as they say), they are allowing Gemini to make a profit from nothing.

We need to contact GLL and give a strong complaint. They should protect us from these companies.
My local leisure centre, they are actually very sympathetic but the manager at local branch said he cannot do anything. But they (manager, receptionist) can support me by writing a document or something. Don't know it can help, though.

But we really need to raise the issue to GLL management!!!

[SpikyHead]

Sorry, I forgot to say....before Gemini to take you to the court, according to BPA, the landowner has to agree. So in your case, GLL has agreed to take you to court. How can they agree to the issue like the case as yours!!! As the organisation which works for community, people, it's disgraceful.

[MollyZ]

Hi VJF2018,
How did things go. I got a ticket from the same people. Did you send your SAR to Gemini or Gladstones?

[charitynjw]

Did you all get a windscreen ticket? (Notice to Driver ....aka NtD)