Euro Car Parks pcn

[tickymicky]

A colleague at work has asked if I can help with this pcn that he received from ECP.
He parked up in a pub car park, used the pub, and got a NtK in the post soon afterwards.
Am I assuming right by saying that as the sign states "Authorised Vehicles" only, and it doesn't state what an Authorised Vehicle is, then the signage is illegal as well as the pcn?
I drafted a letter for the colleague requesting ECP submit the following:-

Before I am in a position to answer the letter I received,dated 26/05/17,there are some questions I would like you to answer, and there are also some documents I am requesting.
1. Can you please supply me with a copy of your contract with the legal landowner of the premises where the Sir John Borlase Warren is situated,giving Euro car parks permission to enforce parking regulations. J.D.Wetherspoon possibly do not own the land.If ,however they do,then I require proof.I am also aware that Stapleford medical centre was situated on the land before moving to new premises,thus meaning that the land may possibly still be under control of the NHS.As you are BPA members, then you will be familiar with section 7 of their code of practice.
2.Please supply me with your registration with the Information Commissioner to use cctv cameras.
3.Please supply me with the name(s),of any data controllers, as registered on the data register.obviously,I will check the validity of points 2 & 3.
4.Please supply me with a copy of Broxtowe borough Councils planning permission submitted by you to allow the erection and use of cctv cameras and signage(signage needs planning permission for signs greater than 0.3cm square,under the town and country Planning Act 2b.I also require a copy of the site plan, and installation and maintenance records of the cameras.

5.Government guidelines on Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 states that charges must be to compensate the landholder only.Based on the above, this means your PCN is an Unfair term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015,regulation 62(4),1st October 2015.Unless of course,you legally own the land.

6.You do not state wether the charge is for damages for trespass,or a contractual sum.

7.There is no legal obligation under Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 to name the driver.I can lawfully invoke my right to silence.Nothing can be inferred by my refusing to name the driver.

8.Failure to provide the correct information /documentation requested above will result in you breaching the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (CPR's)2008.

Until such time that I receive the relevant documentation requested, I cannot assist you any further.Therefore,either supply me with my reasonable request or simply cancel the PCN.
The reply the colleague got is shown in the attachment.

Is there anything else I need to add, or have I added something irrelevant, too much etc.
Is the pcn illegally issued?.
Is the signage incorrect.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Hi tickymicky

The sign, apart from being Australian (joke, btw ), is non compliant.
The letter you have posted does not seem to be the NTK; if it was (or was the first communication), it too is non compliant.

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

What makes the sign non compliant, the fact that it doesn't state what an authorised vehicle is?.
I'll get the colleague to bring the NtK in for me so I can scan it and post it up.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

The sign should form the basis of the contract with the driver (after all, what else is there?), & so should clearly indicate the terms & conditions of the contract & display any payment(s) due in the event of a breach of those terms.
In addition, the sign is 'forbidding'.....it only allows for authorised vehicles.
There is a possible claim in tort (for trespass), but any damages awarded would need to be quantified & would be negligible.

& yes, post up the NTK if you can.
No harm in having a look at that as well.

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Here is the original parking charge notice that was sent to the work colleague.Is it legal or not, and if not,why?.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

What is the issue date of the NtK?

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

19/05/17 is the issue date.Received 26/05/17 at the work colleagues home address.nothing was put on the windscreen.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Has your colleague contacted the pub manager/landlord to see if this can be kicked into touch?

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

I contacted the pub landlord asking for a copy of the contract between the pub chain and ECP.Their response was that they are not negotiating .They never mentioned anything regarding a contract with Wetherspoons and ECP.
I also contacted ECP requesting a copy of their contract with ECP, their registration details with the ICO to use anpr/cctv, and a list of the registered data controllers.They sent aletter back saying the ticket was issued legally and the outstanding balance must be paid.I start back at work this week after 2 weeks holiday,so will hopefully get to see the colleague and update them.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

The signage is clear: authorised vehicles only.
The vehicle/driver was not authorised, & so was trespassing.
Only the landowner can sue for trespass, & then would only be awarded a nominal sum.
The £75 charge is clearly a penalty dressed up to look like a parking charge, & so a no-no.

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

charitynjw,thank you so much for the info.I was certain it was an invalid notice.i believe the land is still owned by the NHS,who had the Stapleford Health Centre on the land before having a new centre built 1/4 mile away.I think Wetherspoons lease the land, so therefore do not own it and have no claim.I also believe ECP have no claim either as they don't own the land either.Neither of the 2 parties want to admit to having a contract,neither do any of them want to submit a contract if they believe one exists.
I'll let the colleague know tomorrow when I am back at work.

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Here is the paper trail between Wetherspoons and the colleague concerned:-
The Admiral Sir John Borlase Warren, Nottingham
Date Visited: Friday, May 19, 2017 10 : 45


Feedback: After visiting the pub in stapleford,I received a ticket in the post demanding payment for an alleged contravention of the car parking terms and conditions.The sign states "Authorised Vehicles" only, but does not state what is an "Authorised Vehicle".Furthermore,The sign should form the basis of the contract with the driver , & so should clearly indicate the terms & conditions of the contract & display any payment(s) due in the event of a breach of those terms.
In addition, the sign is 'forbidding'.....it only allows for authorised vehicles.
There is a possible claim in tort (for trespass), but any damages awarded would need to be quantified & would be negligible.The car park operator is Euro Car Parks.The land was owned by the NHS where the former Stappleford Health Centre was situated.can you please tell me if this is still the case, or is the land owned by Wetherspoons, or someone else?.Many thanks.
Awaiting your reply,

29 June 2017



Dear Mr

Thank you for contacting us.

The car park at the 'Admiral Sir John Warren' is not intended to be a customer cark park, it has always been meant for staff and residents.

A decision was made to allow Euro Car Parks to manage the car park on our behalf. Euro Car parks installed an ANPR camera which takes the registrations of cars as they enter and leave the car park.

Therefore, we must stress that we have not imposed the penalty; this has been done by Euro Car parks. If you wish to appeal, you may contact Euro Car Parks directly, by writing to them with your ticket details, to:

Euro Car Parks Ltd
30 Dorset Square
London
NW1 6QJ
Tel: 0870 907 9777

Thank you for taking the time to contact us and please accept our apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Yours sincerely




Claire Campbell
JD Wetherspoon plc

Thank you for your reply.However,as you state that wetherspoons sanctioned Euro car parks to enforce parking regulations, can you therefore draft me a copy of the contract between Wetherspoons and Euro car parks allowing Euro car parks to enforce the parking restrictions/regulations?.And can you please tell me who owns the land that the car park is on,as you forgot to mention it?Many thanks.Yours Sincerely

05 July 2017

Dear Mr

Thank you for your further response.

I am sorry to hear of your continued disappointment.

We will not be considering your request for a copy of any contracts.

As previously advised, this car park is managed by Euro Car Parks and any further queries should be directed to them.

In view of the above, I am unable to assist you further and now consider this matter closed.


Yours sincerely



Julianne Carroll
JD Wetherspoon plc

Thank You for your reply.However,I have written to ECP requesting a host of information.It fell upon deaf ears,which is why i have requested the information from Wetherspoons. So,I can be 100% guaranteed that Wetherspoons and ECP do not have a contract with each other allowing ECP to enforce parking regulations?.As if it did exist,either Wetherspoons. or ECP, or both parties would be willking to disclose it.
Looks like a letetr to the BPA, the ICO, and DVLA for breach of data protection against ECP.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Hi tickymicky

Did you ever send that drafted letter to ECP?
Or any other communication/appeal to ECP?

[tickymicky]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Here is the only letter I drafted for the colleague.He sent it recorded delivery, and got a reply saying the pcn was issued legally and stands.

DEAR SIR/MADAM,
Before I am in a position to answer the letter I received,dated 26/05/17,there are some questions I would like you to answer, and there are also some documents I am requesting.
1. Can you please supply me with a copy of your contract with the legal landowner of the premises where the Sir John Borlase Warren is situated,giving Euro car parks permission to enforce parking regulations. J.D.Wetherspoon possibly do not own the land.If ,however they do,then I require proof.I am also aware that Stapleford medical centre was situated on the land before moving to new premises,thus meaning that the land may possibly still be under control of the NHS.As you are BPA members, then you will be familiar with section 7 of their code of practice.
2.Please supply me with your registration with the Information Commissioner to use cctv cameras.
3.Please supply me with the name(s),of any data controllers, as registered on the data register.obviously,I will check the validity of points 2 & 3.
4.Please supply me with a copy of Broxtowe borough Councils planning permission submitted by you to allow the erection and use of cctv cameras and signage(signage needs planning permission for signs greater than 0.3cm square,under the town and country Planning Act 2b.I also require a copy of the site plan, and installation and maintenance records of the cameras.

5.Government guidelines on Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 states that charges must be to compensate the landholder only.Based on the above, this means your PCN is an Unfair term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015,regulation 62(4),1st October 2015.Unless of course,you legally own the land.

6.You do not state wether the charge is for damages for trespass,or a contractual sum.

7.There is no legal obligation under Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 to name the driver.I can lawfully invoke my right to silence.Nothing can be inferred by my refusing to name the driver.

8.Failure to provide the correct information /documentation requested above will result in you breaching the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (CPR's)2008.

Until such time that I receive the relevant documentation requested, I cannot assist you any further.Therefore,either supply me with my reasonable request or simply cancel the PCN.

[charitynjw]

Re: Euro Car Parks pcn

Well, the standard 28-day period from issue date to allow the RK to appeal has long gone.
The next move (if any) is up to them.
But given the all round lack of disclosure when requested, the dodgy signage, no POPLA appeal notice, etc, imho you (or rather, your colleague) would have a reasonable chance at defending a claim in a 'proper' court.
I personally don't reckon a DPA breach (counterclaim or claim in it's own right) would work, as they could probably argue that they had 'reasonable cause' to access the DVLA database. But that's a far cry from proving that they were correct in issuing their speculative PCN.