Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

[R0b]

[MENTION=5354]mystery1[/MENTION] I would appreciate some help on this if possible.


Stayed in Liverpool this weekend and woke up to find a ticket this morning on my car from Liverpool CC saying that I parked in a restricted area on Henry Street L1. Whilst I don't disagree where I parked, I do have a few points to note which may or may not be of relevance.


1. There is no signage on that street
2. Where I parked the yellow lines are not continuous, in fact as you can see from the photo below where I parked my car it is so broken and faded along the whole of that street on one side.


I do remember a some years ago that there needs to be adequate signage and that the yellow lines need to be continuous - not sure if this is still the case though.


My initial thoughts are that I should challenge this but any other views would be useful.

[michael]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Whilst yellow lines do not have to be unbroken, there must be ' substantial compliance' with the interpretation that if a line 'looks' like a line then 'no reasonable motorist' could have been misled.

It's clear from your photo that that's not the case here, on the face of it there's no line at all.

Be aware that Liverpool is likely to reject, so you would have to go to adjudication.

Enter your details here:
https://parking.liverpool.gov.uk/pcn/

and see what the council's own photos show

[R0b]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Thanks Michael, just looked at the photo from the council as below. Admittedly when I parked there I couldn't see any yellow lines as the street was full with parking and I caught that empty space and it was dark. Admittedly my wheel is probably close to or touching the yellow line on the third photo but as you can from the first and second photo, there is absolutely no yellow line where my car is parked.

Is there still a chance of challenging this ticket?

[des8]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

What did the ticket actually say the offence was?
Henry Street is in a Controlled Parking Zone, so the street markings are somewhat different.
This link might be of use: http://www.appealnow.com/parking-tic...-parking-zone/

[R0b]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Offence is parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. You say that Henry street is a CPZ, however the only CPZ sign is on entering Kent Street which then leads into Henry Street. So looking at google maps below, there is no sign at the entrance of Henry street therefore is the CPZ for Kent Street, Henry Street and all other streets that are enclosed within the signs or just Kent Street?

There is also no signs on the side of the road that I was parked on either, possibly on the opposite side where the single yellow lines are clearly marked and maintained but I am waiting for a friend to send some photos over to me.

Even if Henry Street is within a CPZ, does the fact that the yellow lines are badly faded now irrelevant or can I still rely on that

Kent Street photo





Henry Street photo

[michael]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

If it was me I definitely would

GSV shows virtually non-existent lines on your side of the street for the last 2 years:
https://goo.gl/maps/2zZrW9j3GDk

Normally if an informal challenge is rejected councils will extend the discount by another 14 days. Liverpool however say if you challenge this pcn within 14 days and the challenge is rejected, the council will decide in each case whether or not to extend the period within which the reduced penalty may be paid.

so basically you need to decide whether to pay the discount now or be prepared to take it all the way through the Notice to Owner and on to adjudication

[michael]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Henry Street is in a Controlled Parking Zone, so the street markings are somewhat different.

The restriction times on the CPZ entry signs apply to the SYL's within that zone. Without the SYL's , there is no restriction.

[R0b]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Well after a bit of googling around it seems there is a few case law which they describe as being substantially compliant although I haven't read enough into it as to what that means. Although there is a CPZ sign on entering into Kent Street (I didn't enter Henry Street this way I came through another way) from what you are saying Michael the council would need to have ensured that the yellow lines were maintained enough and clearly marked to enable a motorist not to be misled?

Could it be argued that due to severe fading and breaking of yellow lines that this section of the CPZ is no longer a restricted area or will this fall into substantially compliant because of the CPZ sign?

Equally, do yellow lines only apply to CPZ's only or are there other instances where they may apply? If I were to drive past a CPZ sign and the area of that CPZ covers a large area, could it be reasonable to expect a person know when the CPZ restrictions apply?

[michael]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Although there is a CPZ sign on entering into Kent Street (I didn't enter Henry Street this way I came through another way) from what you are saying Michael the council would need to have ensured that the yellow lines were maintained enough and clearly marked to enable a motorist not to be misled? Yes, they have a statutory duty that the restrictions set out in the relevant Traffic Regulation Order for a particular place are clearly conveyed to the motorist by means of markings and signs. They are missing in Henry Street.

Could it be argued that due to severe fading and breaking of yellow lines that this section of the CPZ is no longer a restricted area or will this fall into substantially compliant because of the CPZ sign? Yes, I would argue that the SYL is not just faded but non-existent, especially compared to the other side of the street where although faded is still clearly a SYL

Equally, do yellow lines only apply to CPZ's only or are there other instances where they may apply?

Obviously SYL's occur other than just in a CPZ, but outside of a CPZ they will require a timeplate. The whole point of a CPZ is to do away the need for timeplates within the zone, but nevertheless the SYL must be present to indicate to motorists that a restriction exists (as per restrictions on the entry signs)

[michael]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

The experts in council tickets are pepipoo :
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=idx

They will need the PCN (minus reg and pcn no's) and council photos
This explains how to:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858

[des8]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Regarding the CPZ signs, there has to be one on each side of the roads entering the zone.
If you can find a way into the zone that doesn't comply you may have a successful challenge.
I have travelled halfway round L'pool on google earth and got thoroughly lost!:tinysmile_cry_t:

Regarding indistinct or non compliant road markings this is the case often referred to: http://keycases.parkingandtrafficapp...202010)pdf.pdf

[R0b]

Re: Got myself a ticket - Liverpool CC

Thanks Michael, I may just head over there and seek some help. [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION], liverpool is very confusing anyway! I remember coming in from somewhere near a bus station where there were some traffic lights but I can't see where that might be on Google Maps! I think I came across that case name, just haven't had time to read it fully and there doesn't seem to be any cases which distinguish from it either.