DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

[wales01man]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thought Companies that sorted out Deceased estates did just that no cock it up by forgetting a 30k bond the blame must lie with them or what do they do for their money

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

That's why we paid them nearly GBP8000 as we needed professionals to do everything. I thought this would ensure that everyone was paid before distributing monies to beneficiaries. This all comes back to my question in the beginning, as to why DWP didn't act between November 2013 when my Mum died and February 2015 when disbursements were made to my sister and I? That was already nearly 15 months in which I am sure they would have noticed there could have been an overpayment.

Again thank you for all your valuable insights.

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Ha ha - There goes my plan for my golden years - I was thinking of applying for my pension over there :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

That's why we paid them nearly GBP8000 as we needed professionals to do everything. I thought this would ensure that everyone was paid before distributing monies to beneficiaries. This all comes back to my question in the beginning, as to why DWP didn't act between November 2013 when my Mum died and February 2015 when disbursements were made to my sister and I? That was already nearly 15 months in which I am sure they would have noticed there could have been an overpayment.

Again thank you for all your valuable insights.

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Ha ha - There goes my plan for my golden years - I was thinking of applying for my pension over there :tinysmile_twink_t2:

8 grand is just outrageous for their royal cock-up. If you knew how incompetent they'd be (in retrospect), you'd have done better yourself..saving 8k.

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I idly wonder why it took DWP so long apparently to send notification that they were investigating your mothers possible overpayment.
They are normally quick off the mark after probate has been obtained.
Not that it will make much difference (keep ignoring) but do you know the actual date that probate was granted?

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I don't know. Does probate have to wait until the sale of property (house) or does the estimate of property value suffice to complete probate?
I can't see any entry in their bills apart from when probate was applied for. Thanks,

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Grant of probate will be given on estimate of house value, which might never be sold.
See here to find when probate granted https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inh...robate-records

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

It was granted 09 April, 2014. It took DWP until May/June 2015 to send the first notice that they were looking into it. Then, only on the urging of the Reg. Trust people that they sent out the letter Dec. 31, 2015.

Grant of probate will be given on estimate of house value, which might never be sold.
See here to find when probate granted https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inh...robate-records

[charitynjw]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Further to des's post above (#51), the house is often valued as per this link:

https://www.gov.uk/valuing-estate-of...ho-died/assets

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I am surprised at the delay by DWP in making contact....... most unlike them as they know if the executor has posted a section 27 notice and any beneficiaries have spent the money they will not easily recover any overpayments.
In your position I would just sit tight and get on with my life.
Your sister can basically do the same as she has no way of recovering her legacy.
If the money ain't there, there is little DWP can do other than write nasty letters.
They MIGHT threaten to reduce her benefits to collect the overpayment to your mother, but I believe that facility only applies to recovery of benefit overpayments to that person.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

There are 2 ways that I know of where assets can be traced where available. In property law, the technical term is 'proprietary remedy (or claim in rem)' and 'tracing rules.' 1) misappropriation of assets/ trusts/ money by trustee, other professional; 2) Dishonest recipient (ie third party beneficiary knows the gift was stolen etc).

Once the assets are gone they're gone. DWP cannot simply make up the law to benefit itself.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Here is an update! I requested all correspondence from the probate company and as it turns out that I was not privy to any of the information nor letters exchanged. They did in fact, outsource the file to the solicitors that did the conveyancing for the sale of the bungalow. This company heard from DWP within a week of probate being granted (back in April 2014) and DWP clearly stated that they were looking into my late mother's affairs and warning them NOT TO DISTRIBUTE THE ESTATE. There were many exchanges of letters, lost letters and an ongoing investigation. The probate/wills company did not avail my sister or I that any of this was happening, and basically exchange of letters/phone calls went on during the whole time. I was only availed to the situation in May/June 2015 when they made it look like this was the first communication and I couldn't understand why DWP would have waited so long and then wrote to the solicitors used to sell the bungalow. Their (the probate company's explanation of why they dispersed the funds against the DWP's advice, was that they 'thought' they had received a call/letter/email from DWP saying that no further action was required - but now they can't find it. To say that I feel completely hookwinked by them is an understatement, but to stay on subject. they are saying that DWP will proceed with civil action if they do not receive the money.

Should I write to the DWP and ask for more time to investigate what went on?

Thank you.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Here is an update! I requested all correspondence from the probate company and as it turns out that I was not privy to any of the information nor letters exchanged. They did in fact, outsource the file to the solicitors that did the conveyancing for the sale of the bungalow. This company heard from DWP within a week of probate being granted (back in April 2014) and DWP clearly stated that they were looking into my late mother's affairs and warning them NOT TO DISTRIBUTE THE ESTATE. There were many exchanges of letters, lost letters and an ongoing investigation. The probate/wills company did not avail my sister or I that any of this was happening, and basically exchange of letters/phone calls went on during the whole time. I was only availed to the situation in May/June 2015 when they made it look like this was the first communication and I couldn't understand why DWP would have waited so long and then wrote to the solicitors used to sell the bungalow. Their (the probate company's explanation of why they dispersed the funds against the DWP's advice, was that they 'thought' they had received a call/letter/email from DWP saying that no further action was required - but now they can't find it. To say that I feel completely hookwinked by them is an understatement, but to stay on subject. they are saying that DWP will proceed with civil action if they do not receive the money.

Should I write to the DWP and ask for more time to investigate what went on?

Thank you.

hello JudyCC

Do you have the most current letter to say that DWP are gonna' take this to a civil court. I wouldn't trust that probate company as far as i could throw them. I would not take their word for it that DWP are gonna pursue this avenue. What are they going to do, you're in Canada, it'll be more of a problem for them then what it is worth. The estate has gone RIP estate!

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Hello OpenJaw 14
Thank you for your prompt response, as I continue to 'lose my mind' over this situation.

There is no letter attached from the Probate people that states that DWP will take civil action that I can see from what they have sent me. They have said in previous emails that they have 'spoken' to them and have tried to delay further proceedings as this took such a long time to conclude. Obviously, the Probate people are anxious to conclude this, as it rather looks like they have not been transparent in their actions, nor properly informed my sister and I of what was going on. If I had been informed that DWP were investigating from around the time of Probate and had told them not to distribute, I would not have allowed this to happen until it was finalised, or at least held funds back to deal with this.


This is the sentence at the end of their last main email to me:
"Although you state that you do not wish to assume responsibility for 'sister' for her share, unfortunately the DWP make it clear that they are not prepared to pursue beneficiaries and that the sole responsibility lies with the Personal Representative. 'name of person from probate co" acted under a delegated authority as your agent but ultimately, as the Executor, the responsibility is yours to recover and as such, we will need to pass your contact details to them."

I can find no reference in the DWP correspondence that states that. It seems the only people they are going after at this stage is the Probate/Solicitors, as they do not have any names or addresses for my sister or I. The probate/solicitor is stating that they must forward my name and details soon to DWP.

Again, I reiterate that at no time was I informed that I was responsible for anything when signing up with this company, around the time of my mother's death. We had used them to enact Lasting Power of Attorney for my incapacitated mother back in 2005. During a very brief meeting where I signed some paperwork (I have no copies) between the time of my mother's death and the funeral and us flying back home, I understood that everything would be handled in a bespoke (their words) and professional manner and took it from that, that I could expect that all debts would be paid and everything finalised. For a company that this is their specialty, I cannot understand how this could have happened.

I do understand though that these are two separate issues. The one that I have with the probate company who perhaps you would advise going to an Ombudsman about and the other, the ongoing situation with DWP. I would really appreciate any pointers at this stage and whether you feel I should get in touch with DWP or not?

Thank you very much.
Judy

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Hello OpenJaw 14
Thank you for your prompt response, as I continue to 'lose my mind' over this situation.

There is no letter attached from the Probate people that states that DWP will take civil action that I can see from what they have sent me. They have said in previous emails that they have 'spoken' to them and have tried to delay further proceedings as this took such a long time to conclude. Obviously, the Probate people are anxious to conclude this, as it rather looks like they have not been transparent in their actions, nor properly informed my sister and I of what was going on. If I had been informed that DWP were investigating from around the time of Probate and had told them not to distribute, I would not have allowed this to happen until it was finalised, or at least held funds back to deal with this.


This is the sentence at the end of their last main email to me:
"Although you state that you do not wish to assume responsibility for 'sister' for her share, unfortunately the DWP make it clear that they are not prepared to pursue beneficiaries and that the sole responsibility lies with the Personal Representative. 'name of person from probate co" acted under a delegated authority as your agent but ultimately, as the Executor, the responsibility is yours to recover and as such, we will need to pass your contact details to them."

It is your responsibility, yes so this is why you hired these, what we now know to be gross incompetents, for 8k. As Desm says had the probate company made DWP alert to potential debtors when dealing with the estate by posting in the government's publication, the Gazette...then you would not have had to take responsibility.

"I can find no reference in the DWP correspondence that states that. It seems the only people they are going after at this stage is the Probate/Solicitors, as they do not have any names or addresses for my sister or I. The probate/solicitor is stating that they must forward my name and details soon to DWP.

Again, I reiterate that at no time was I informed that I was responsible for anything when signing up with this company, around the time of my mother's death. We had used them to enact Lasting Power of Attorney for my incapacitated mother back in 2005. During a very brief meeting where I signed some paperwork (I have no copies) between the time of my mother's death and the funeral and us flying back home, I understood that everything would be handled in a bespoke (their words) and professional manner and took it from that, that I could expect that all debts would be paid and everything finalised. For a company that this is their specialty, I cannot understand how this could have happened."

When you appointed them as Lasting Power of Attorney they assumed legal responsibility in terms of providing reasonable services at the standard of the comparator (ie reasonable probate company standard). They should have told DWP when aware of any such potential debts owed to DWP that your mother did not have capacity in 2003 so she does not have capacity to know if there were a change of circumstances as she did not have legal capacity to deal with her affairs which includes her financial affairs, which is why the probate company were paid to deal with her affairs for which she could not have had capacity, including conveying information to DWP to this effect.

"I do understand though that these are two separate issues. The one that I have with the probate company who perhaps you would advise going to an Ombudsman about and the other, the ongoing situation with DWP. I would really appreciate any pointers at this stage and whether you feel I should get in touch with DWP or not?"


Thank you very much.
Judy

Update: I would not pay them a penny unless it is by a court order, as at that point you can argue you mother did not have capacity to know there had been a change of circumstance. The estate is responsible for any claims according to DWP law but not the personal representative, ie the executor. The estate has been distributed so I cannot see how they will prove a claim against you in Canada. That is the point; if you're in Canada you'll have to be served by court documents to your home address, then you can defend it in your local court. I just cannot see this happening...it will cost DWP too much money. They will not throw away good money after bad ..as they know it's a dodgy claim anyway. I think these lawyers are just trying it on. Remember it's only a civil claim which means they (being DWP) have to prove they're a debtor.

They are not two separate issues if the lasting power of attorney and probate issues were being dealt with by the same lawyer company.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Wow.. thank you for your immediate answer.

I think I have confused the issue. My sister and I used this company for us (my sister and I) to have Enduring Power of Attorney for our mother, as she was already struggling with alzheimers. I should not have said Lasting Power of Attorney. Papers were drawn up in November , 2005 and Registered with Court of Protection on 01 June 2006.

Thank you.



QUOTE=Openlaw15;633086]Update: I would not pay them a penny unless it is by a court order, as at that point you can argue you mother did not have capacity to know there had been a change of circumstance. The estate is responsible for any claims according to DWP law but not the personal representative, ie the executor. The estate has been distributed so I cannot see how they will prove a claim against you in Canada. That is the point; if you're in Canada you'll have to be served by court documents to your home address, then you can defend it in your local court. I just cannot see this happening...it will cost DWP too much money. They will not throw away good money after bad ..as they know it's a dodgy claim anyway. I think these lawyers are just trying it on. Remember it's only a civil claim which means they (being DWP) have to prove they're a debtor.

They are not two separate issues if the lasting power of attorney and probate issues were being dealt with by the same lawyer company.[/QUOTE]