DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you. You are saying if you blew the inheritance on a Round the World Trip and the money has gone, you can claim a change of condition, but if you used it to pay down your mortgage, you have to repay the amount?

Therefore, I should pay my half share, but if I become liable as Personal Representative/Executor for my sister's portion, I should look at a claim against the probate company, who did not protect me via the advertisement in the London Gazette?

As far as I know, my sister used her inheritance to pay down her mortgage, so if this is the case, and she is unlikely to get another mortgage given her disabilities and living on benefits, should she then phone DWP to explain this and find a way for her to pay off her portion?

Thank you so very much for all this valuable advice. It is extremely confusing, and living in Canada makes it extraordinarily worrying. I am really happy to have found the Legal Beagles and thank you kindly for this resource!

Well yes, if you don't have the money left they can't claim it. Can you actually show me the words in DWP's solicitor's letter. How much was the amount that DWP say you owe? I wouldn't be too concerned about the Gazette - as the standard is the equivalent executor not the equivalent professional PR...it's meant to be for large estates and for creditors to be ware so they can make their claims (testator's liabilities) before the will has been distributed (administrated). Remember, DWP have to prove their claim first...right now they have proved nothing. Your sister's mortgage, how much passed to her and where is she living? I would not pay a thing unless you're forced to...you did not receive dishonestly so stand your ground.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

My mother had Alzheimers and I am sure would not knowingly have concealed anything from anyone. I could see her current account online but I could not see any Bond that was apparently rolling over.

I was not aware of Mum getting a bond. I live in Canada and was not privy to Mum's affairs until much later but the Bond was not visible.

I probably couldn't bear to be taken to court under any circumstances. My half of the claim by DWP is just under GBP5000.00 which surely isn't worth anyone trying to look at my bank account in Canada. My feeling is to accept paying my half and be done with it, but I don't want to be responsible for paying my sister's half which shouldn't be my responsibility. This I understand by Des8 could have been mitigated by the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners, by them placing an advertisement in the London Gazette, which I don't believe they did.

I have to make a decision as DWP want to receive funds by January 28th. The Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners are waiting for my electronic transfer of my portion of funds to them before this. What should I do?

Thank you,

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

My mother had Alzheimers and I am sure would not knowingly have concealed anything from anyone. I could see her current account online but I could not see any Bond that was apparently rolling over.

I was not aware of Mum getting a bond. I live in Canada and was not privy to Mum's affairs until much later but the Bond was not visible.

I probably couldn't bear to be taken to court under any circumstances. My half of the claim by DWP is just under GBP5000.00 which surely isn't worth anyone trying to look at my bank account in Canada. My feeling is to accept paying my half and be done with it, but I don't want to be responsible for paying my sister's half which shouldn't be my responsibility. This I understand by Des8 could have been mitigated by the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners, by them placing an advertisement in the London Gazette, which I don't believe they did.

I have to make a decision as DWP want to receive funds by January 28th. The Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners are waiting for my electronic transfer of my portion of funds to them before this. What should I do?

Thank you,

Personally I wouldn't pay them a cent. If you show willingness to pay half they may come after you for all of it. It would cost too much to trace what you have in Canada, ie costs versus benefits' analysis. I would not show them any bank statements. The Will may have been an English jurisdiction (English law right to hear the law)....but claims against you under tracing rules that's likely to be Canadian jurisdiction as you're a Canadian citizen. So yes it is possible but i think it will cost more than £5,000 to do it, more than what you owe so seemingly it's uneconomically viable for DWP unless you volunteer the money. DWP do not have a legal right to claim, they at best have an equitable right, ie not automatically binding. If you can afford the money easily may be it's in your interest to pay it.

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I appreciate your feeling inclined to pay to get the whole matter over and done with

However, if you don't intend returning to the UK, why pay?
What can they do? issue a court claim? however a County Court judgement can only be obtained against a UK resident

DWP appear to b applying pressure for immediate payment to frighten you so you don't obtain legal advice. Just like any lowlife DCA!

Ask the Reg. Trust& Estate Practitioners the date probate was granted, and the date they placed a section 27 notice.... or ignore!


For your sister she should tell them the money has gone on the mortgage and cannot now be regained.
As she is in receipt of benefits, some of this might have been a supported mortgage, so her benefits might have been reduced.
This essentially means the DWP are recouping her share via her reduced benefits.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you Openlaw15.

Thank you. GBP5000.00 is never easily afforded I am sure, particularly in this instance where the Canadian Dollar has fallen dramatically against Sterling since the disbursement. My contention is that I was not told that I was Executor (saw an email saying Personal Representative which didn't mean anything to me), nor was I told that I would be personally liable for any further claims (i.e. my sister's portion if she doesn't pay her share). While I feel it is my duty to pay back my portion of the overpayment of pension credit, I do not want to pay (borrow to do this), my sister's share. I should not have been put in the position by the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners and had they placed this ad in the London Gazette, would not be liable.

It is almost by doing the 'right' thing in paying my fair share, I then open myself up for paying my sister's share, yet couldn't live with the thought of being hounded by the DWP, when if the disbursements had not been made, the money would have been recoverable from the principal while still held by the Reg. Trust company, which is how it should have been done.

After probate and before amounts are disbursed, should the DWP have given some sort of clearance to the Reg. Trust company working on our behalf, or did they jump the gun by dispersing without this? Or is it entirely normal for the DWP to not look into this until so long afterwards?

Thank you ... I am still confused as to what to do.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

My mother had Alzheimers and I am sure would not knowingly have concealed anything from anyone. I could see her current account online but I could not see any Bond that was apparently rolling over.

I was not aware of Mum getting a bond. I live in Canada and was not privy to Mum's affairs until much later but the Bond was not visible.

I probably couldn't bear to be taken to court under any circumstances. My half of the claim by DWP is just under GBP5000.00 which surely isn't worth anyone trying to look at my bank account in Canada. My feeling is to accept paying my half and be done with it, but I don't want to be responsible for paying my sister's half which shouldn't be my responsibility. This I understand by Des8 could have been mitigated by the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners, by them placing an advertisement in the London Gazette, which I don't believe they did.

I have to make a decision as DWP want to receive funds by January 28th. The Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners are waiting for my electronic transfer of my portion of funds to them before this. What should I do?

Thank you,

Of course they're putting pressure on you they're morally vacuous persons. My answer is let them whistle for it in your case. I don't know much about your sister's to advise her.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you Openlaw15.

Thank you. GBP5000.00 is never easily afforded I am sure, particularly in this instance where the Canadian Dollar has fallen dramatically against Sterling since the disbursement. My contention is that I was not told that I was Executor (saw an email saying Personal Representative which didn't mean anything to me), nor was I told that I would be personally liable for any further claims (i.e. my sister's portion if she doesn't pay her share). While I feel it is my duty to pay back my portion of the overpayment of pension credit, I do not want to pay (borrow to do this), my sister's share. I should not have been put in the position by the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners and had they placed this ad in the London Gazette, would not be liable.

It is almost by doing the 'right' thing in paying my fair share, I then open myself up for paying my sister's share, yet couldn't live with the thought of being hounded by the DWP, when if the disbursements had not been made, the money would have been recoverable from the principal while still held by the Reg. Trust company, which is how it should have been done.

After probate and before amounts are disbursed, should the DWP have given some sort of clearance to the Reg. Trust company working on our behalf, or did they jump the gun by dispersing without this? Or is it entirely normal for the DWP to not look into this until so long afterwards?
Thank you ... I am still confused as to what to do.

DWP work with all agencies - when someone dies that death is registered...DWP would not simply leave it to the person/ claimant as they could lose billions if that were the case. Again if I were you in your situation I would not pay them anything, they're simply trying to frighten you. Look at the words 'request'....lawyers use words intentionally for effect. 'possible' ...if they had any merit they would use more commanding words like 'must' ...'demand'....'court action'... etc.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

We still have an aged parent in England so will be returning for a visit sometime (likely June), but have no intention of taking up residence in England and will remain in Canada. I have both British and Canadian passports. Should I be concerned visiting England?

Are you saying that my sister should phone DWP directly and tell them the money has gone on the mortgage?

I should email the Reg. Trust with those questions above, or did you mean 'ignore' ... just don't reply to anyone?

Thank you.

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

After probate and before amounts are disbursed, should the DWP have given some sort of clearance to the Reg. Trust company working on our behalf, or did they jump the gun by dispersing without this? Or is it entirely normal for the DWP to not look into this until so long afterwards?

Thank you ... I am still confused as to what to do.

Normally the DWP are advised shortly after death that a claimant is deceased.
If probate is applied for and granted HMRC notify DWP about the deceased's estate.
The size of the estate will flag up the possibility of an overpayment, at which time the DWP normally contact the executor or Personal Representative warning them they might be looking for a repayment of possible overpayment of benefits if their investigations should show such an overpayment took place!! Can take many months before they make a decision.
They don't actually make a claim until they have finished their investigations.

Now if a section 25 notice has been made a executor can distribute the estate within 2 months taking into account claims made.
It is a moot point whether or not their warning notice is a claim or not.

Lots of talk on different fora about this !!

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Your sister has not received an overpayment so she does not have to pay DWP back by small amount as that would apply to benefit claimants whose benefits were overpaid. She is simply a third party who benefitted from a will's gift. DWP have to prove your sister is liable for the debt but if she says she has paid her mortgage off ..it may be an incentive for DWP to try and get a charge order. However, as there is no debt per se i fail to see how a charge could be put on her property. Charge means security is taken on her property which means she can't sell her home unless she pays the debt first, in any event courts rarely permit sale. However if she says the she has no money left after paying off the mortgage they're likely to leave her alone. It's only £5000 after-all. DWP could attempt to make claims against her property but if she does not volunteer bank statements DWP will find it difficult to even make claims under the tracing rules.

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

We still have an aged parent in England so will be returning for a visit sometime (likely June), but have no intention of taking up residence in England and will remain in Canada. I have both British and Canadian passports. Should I be concerned visiting England?

Are you saying that my sister should phone DWP directly and tell them the money has gone on the mortgage?

I should email the Reg. Trust with those questions above, or did you mean 'ignore' ... just don't reply to anyone?

Thank you.

No need to be concerned about visiting UK
This is a civil matter, not criminal and you would not be arrested, jailed nor executed!

It would be better for your sister to write to explain the position, and insist with DWP that all communications with her should be in writing.
No "misunderstandings" that way.

Re Reg Trust, I personally would try and get the info. But that is just me.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

The letter states:

About the estate of ......

Thank you for your help.
A total of GBP9827.73 is owed by the estate to the Department for Work and Pensions.
Details are given in the table on page 2.

Please send all payments only to:

Address of DWP in Camberley

Overpayment of income-related benefit arising from our recent enquiry into the income and assets of ....... ......

We have compared the information you forwarded to us with the details given when ........ ......... was paid benefit and decided that too much benefit was paid. This is because the Department for WOrk and Pensions did not know about all their resources. Notes about income and capital are enclosed.

If you want a further explanation of disagree with this decision the final page explains what you need to do next.

Next page:

Total debts repayable from the estate.

The table below lists all debts owed to the Department for Work and Pensions


Debt Type Overpayment Period Amount

Pension Credit 23/02/2006 to 04/12/2013 GBP9827.73


This money must be paid back from the estate. Please send payment by 28/01/2016
Details of how you can pay are enclosed. We will send you a receipt for the amount paid.

If you would like more information, please call ..........


Then there are a few pages of Treatment of Income and Capital. from 11.4.88 to 9.4.90 ... GBP 3000 or under nill, 3000 to 6000 GBP1 for each complete GBP 250 or part thereof. Over GBP No entitlement with 4 examples ,

and Pension Credit tariff and changes according to date.



Thank you.

Well yes, if you don't have the money left they can't claim it. Can you actually show me the words in DWP's solicitor's letter. How much was the amount that DWP say you owe? I wouldn't be too concerned about the Gazette - as the standard is the equivalent executor not the equivalent professional PR...it's meant to be for large estates and for creditors to be ware so they can make their claims (testator's liabilities) before the will has been distributed (administrated). Remember, DWP have to prove their claim first...right now they have proved nothing. Your sister's mortgage, how much passed to her and where is she living? I would not pay a thing unless you're forced to...you did not receive dishonestly so stand your ground.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

The letter states:

About the estate of ......

Thank you for your help.
A total of GBP9827.73 is owed by the estate to the Department for Work and Pensions.
Details are given in the table on page 2.

Please send all payments only to:

Address of DWP in Camberley

Overpayment of income-related benefit arising from our recent enquiry into the income and assets of ....... ......

We have compared the information you forwarded to us with the details given when ........ ......... was paid benefit and decided that too much benefit was paid. This is because the Department for WOrk and Pensions did not know about all their resources. Notes about income and capital are enclosed.

Decided is very informal language, too.

If you want a further explanation of disagree with this decision the final page explains what you need to do next."

Of disagree? Disagree with the decision point, what options are you given?

Next page:

Total debts repayable from the estate.

Estate has been distributed.

The table below lists all debts owed to the Department for Work and Pensions

It is not a debt against yourself unless it first proven, and there is no specific person addressed any way.

Debt Type Overpayment Period Amount

Pension Credit 23/02/2006 to 04/12/2013 GBP9827.73


This money must be paid back from the estate. Please send payment by 28/01/2016

Paid by whom?? There is no mention of beneficiary. It says must but no consequence for you if you don't pay.

Details of how you can pay are enclosed. We will send you a receipt for the amount paid.

If you would like more information, please call ..........


Then there are a few pages of Treatment of Income and Capital. from 11.4.88 to 9.4.90 ... GBP 3000 or under nill, 3000 to 6000 GBP1 for each complete GBP 250 or part thereof. Over GBP No entitlement with 4 examples ,

and Pension Credit tariff and changes according to date.



Thank you.

It is a very general letter with no real specifics - it just looks like a random letter by the language used that goes out to all n sundry with details of the overpayment but aimed at no particular respondent, ie no beneficiary, no third party. It says you must but there is no threat of court action if you don't. If you're in Canada how did the letter reach you, ie was it passed through your family to your address?

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you. The letter came as an attachment from an email sent to me from the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners, on January 11, 2015, who acted on our behalf for the whole process. They are the ones who originally let DWP know that Mum had died, obtained probate, and they eventually dispersed the funds last February, 2015.

They received a letter last May/June 2015 from DWP who stated they were looking into an overpayment. It was in fact, the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners who got back in touch with DWP again, I think at the end of last year December 2015 (unbeknownst to me as I would have said LEAVE WELL ALONE), but I suppose they wanted to close their books and wanted an answer from DWP. Perhaps this is why it is such a scant form like letter rushed out? I had no idea that they were going to chase down DWP and see what was happening.

The Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners could have given DWP the beneficiaries names/details (my sister and I), but I really don't know. I have only received two emails from them in the last 10 months - one to inform me that DWP were looking into a possible overpayment that I received last May/June and the one with the attachment on January 11, 2016.

I have not been contacted directly by DWP, neither has my sister who lives in England. I understand that the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners sent my sister a letter with the same information as I received in the attachment.

I am sure the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners are anxiously awaiting my bank transfer into their bank account. They did not want me to send it directly to DWP but to them. I had emailed them back to say I would pay my half share, but I would not take any responsibility should my sister not pay her half. This was their reply: (again please note: I do not ever recall being told I was the Executor and understood that the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners 'person' was the Executor. Looking back I see an email that refers to me being the Personal Representative, would have meant nothing more to me than I was the one they were communicating with due to my sister's limitations of speech etc., following a stroke):

"With regard to liability, I am afraid that, as the Executor, you are responsible for the whole debt. This may mean that if 'sister' doesn’t respond, you will need to pay the entire amount and pursue her for her half share. Let us hope it doesn’t come to this. I have a diary note to contact 'sister' again if I have not heard from her in a week or so. You will see that the DWP can take their time, but they are less obliging when it comes to requesting repayment of the debt "

Thank you again for your advice. I am feeling a little less frantic after both Des8 and your kind attention to this for me. I have been having nightmares about the strong arm of the law tapping me on the shoulder on any visit back to the Old Country! I don't even have parking tickets!

judycc

[mariefab]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Have the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners informed you that they did not put a notice in the Gazette?
Or, have you checked the Gazette online 'wills and probate notices' section yourself?