London Parking Solutions

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

My mistake. https://www.theias.org/faqs

If you have appealed to an operator and they have rejected your appeal then they will have informed you as to whether you have the ability to appeal that decision to the IAS. Where that have provided this ability then they will pre-register certain details onto the IAS system which will then allow you to access the service.


You should have been directed to www.theIAS.org where you can submit your appeal online. You can appeal by entering the parking charge reference number and the vehicle registration number into the IAS online portal.


If your details are not being accepted, please contact the operator as they will have the information to help you.


You may also appeal by post. If you wish to appeal by post then you will need to use the correct forms during the appeals process. Please refer to the Appealing by Post page for more information.




So nothing else required.



What Is The Appeals Process?


Once you have registered your details, your appeal will follow this procedure:

1. YOU LODGE YOUR ‘INITIAL COMPLAINT’
   Your Initial Complaint is activated by identifying the parking charge that you want to appeal against by entering the Parking Charge reference number and your vehicle registration number. You have the option of simply activating your appeal at this stage so that you can wait and see what the operator uploads in due course or you can upload your appeal and all supporting documentation in full at this point.
   
   Your appeal will then have started and you will be sent an email confirming the same.
   
2. THE OPERATOR ESTABLISHES PRIMA FACIE CASE
   The parking operator is notified by email of your appeal and is provided with 5 working days to provide details of a Prima Facie case in support of their assertion that a charge is payable by you.
   
   A 'Prima Facie' case means sufficient evidence to show that there is, on the face of it, an enforceable charge in law.
   
   You will be sent an email confirming when this has been submitted by them.
   
3. CONSUMER COMPLAINT
   You will be able to log into the system to view the operator's response and view any evidence that has been uploaded. You have 10 working days to submit your written representations and upload all evidence supporting your appeal.
   
   Make sure that you provide all of the information that is requested of you along with your correct contacts and ALL of the evidence you would like to rely on. The IAS will be unable to add further documents to your appeal after it has been submitted.
   
   An email will be sent to you confirming submission of your appeal.
   
4. OPERATOR RESPONSE TO COMPLAINT
   The operator is provided with 5 working days to provide written representations and evidence in support of their response to you. You will be notified by email when this has been submitted and the case will then be placed before an adjudicator for a decision to be made.
   
   Please note, you are not able to respond to these submissions but you can view them by logging into the system.
   
5. THE ADJUDICATION
   All evidence and any representations are submitted and stored on the system awaiting adjudication. Appeals are dealt with in order of submission via on online queuing system. An independent Adjudicator determines the appeal by logging in remotely, reviewing the evidence and providing the reasons in support of their findings.

Once a decision is made you will notified by email of the result.



Option 1 but only activating would be what i'd suggest at the moment.

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Evening,

As requested I lodged my initial complaint for all three parking charge notices and today I have received back two out of the three prima facie case requesting me to either:
1) Submit my appeal
2) Refer the case straight to arbitration

Im guessing you would already know that this is what I would get back.

If you remember that I received three PCN charges all on the same day and I questioned as to why I had three and also asking for locations of signs etc, I never received anything back.

Im guessing that they have dropped one as it was a mistake and the reason there are still two is that I moved my car a few 100 yards when visiting two different clients.

Im sure you already know this but they are basically saying that I agreed to be charged as soon as I stopped that car and that I had parked in a location where signs were clearly displayed, still no idea as to the location.
They do know it was me driving and I don't know if that makes a big difference.

Can you please advise as to what I reply back to them in the appeal procedure.

Thank you as always for your help so far.

Regards

Brett

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

You will be able to log into the system to view the operator's response and view any evidence that has been uploaded. You have 10 working days to submit your written representations and upload all evidence supporting your appeal.

Have you logged in and viewed the evidence ?

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

There are some photographs of me in the car and also delivering some product to one of my customers.

The comments are as follows are both the same stating:

The land is private and therefore subject to the terms and conditions of parking

By way of contractual warning signage which is displayed on the site motorists are made away that stopping or waiting is not permitted.

In the event that a vehicle does stop then the motorist by way of affirmation has agreed to pay the operator a fixed sum.

It states that I was parked in clear line of sight of such notice from the photographic evidence but have not seen that pic as yet but I guess it is there.

For these reasons I should pay up basically.

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Leave it with me. Working all weekend so beginning of the week.

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Thank you

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Could you possibly scan 1 pcn up (suitably sanitised) please. just want to see in what way precisely the fail keeper liability.

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Ok for some reason I cant upload the email I got so I am going to type it out.

Its the same for both the parking charges and interestingly for some reason I have won one of my appeals, if you remember I had three!

Ok here goes:

The operator made their Prima Facie case on 7/1/2016 08:31.39
The operator reported that:
The appellant was the driver
The appellant was the Keeper
The operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with PoFA..
ANPR/CCTV was used
The notice to Keeper was sent on 12/12/2015
A response was received from the notice to the keeper
The ticket was issued on 2/12/2015
The notice to keeper (APNR) was sent in accordance with PoFA
The charge is based in contract.

The operator made the following comments:

The land in question is private and is therefore subject to terms and conditions of parking
By way of contractual warning signage, which is displayed at the site, motorists are made aware that stopping or waiting is not permitted.

In the event that a vehicle does choose to stop or wait, then the motorist by way of affirmation has agreed to pay the operator a fixed agreed upon sum of money.
In essence this sum is a core contractual price term.

Should the motorist not to agree to the terms and conditions of parking then they are free to remove their vehicle from the site and to park at an alternate location.

As per the operators photographic evidence that the appellant was parked within a clear line of site of warning sign of at least one warning sign,

For the reasons set out above we say that the appellant is liable for this parking charge notice.

This is word for word what the reply says.

Thanks
Brett

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Do you have a copy of any of the letters you were sent (notice to keeper) by LPS ?

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Morning,

Ok so just to recap,

The original parking notices (3) which i got first are at the top of this thread.

Since then i received the same notices again.

I Then received these letters and it was then that I went on to the IAS webpage to log in and make an additional appeal which was the information i sent you the other day.

The letters below are the same except one had photographic evidence attached.

So far that is it, no more letters but obviously the email asking me to submit my appeal etc

I think you have everything now.

Thank you
Brett

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

So they are. Going out soon but i'll do it tonight.

M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

Thank you so far for all your help, Im going to owe you a drink or two at this rate.

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

traffic-signs-manual-chapter-02-x-height.pdf


If you have photos of signage add them too, noting that everything must be done in 1 go.






I, as registered keeper would like to appeal on the following grounds.

1. No contract due to signage issues.

2. No keeper liability.


1. No contract due to signage issues.

The signs do not meet the IPC code of practice.

The signage position is such that it can't be read either at all, without stopping, or in the main without stopping.

The department of transport helpfully issued the traffic signs manual. I have attached a section on the calculation on font sizes driver are expected to see on road signs.
The first observation is that drivers must be able to read signs without moving their head more than 10% from the road. This is for safety reasons. Both the Independent Parking Committee and the British Parking Association agree with this in their respective code of practices.



Reading Time


The next consideration is the number of words on the sign. DfT guidelines state that a sign should contain no more than 6 words or directions. This is the number that can be scanned safely in 4 seconds. Any more than that and the driver's eyes are off the road for too long.


Reading time R is given as 2 + N/3 seconds, where N is the number of words or directions on the sign. 2 seconds are given for the eyes to settle on the sign and start reading.


The sign contains lots of words words, including the small print at the bottom. This will take more than a slow pass to read. The sign also contains several graphics, some of which also contain words. The only possible way to read the sign would be to stop on the road, but this will be a breach of the alleged contract.




To form a contract there must be a meeting of minds. For this to take place, the driver must not only have time to read the sign, but also time to consider and digest the contract and decide whether to accept or not. In a car park, the driver can do this at their leisure; typically the operator will give 5 minutes for the driver to consider any contract and decide whether to accept or not. It is obvious that there can be no meeting of minds if the driver does not have time to read the sign, let alone have time to consider it, especially when their main focus must be on driving safely and not considering the intricacies of contract law.

The first sign is too close to the junction to be read safely.
The signs contains many times the number of words which can be read safely.
The smallest font hiding the charge can never be read safely.
The biggest font is only readable once the vehicle is too close for the driver to safely turn their head.
The signs actually tempt drivers into unsafe driving practices, by making them turn their head too far from the road, and keeping their attention off the road for too long. This is clearly an unfair term and unenforceable under consumer law.

The driver cannot contract to do something which is not allowed. No contract was ever formed.

2. Keeper liability.

The operators primia facie case states that "the operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with pofa"


The protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 allows the opportunity for parking companies liable for the actions of the driver but only if full compliance is achieved. In the case of an ANPR situation compliance with section 9 is required.




Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle








4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met ....




6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—








(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.








9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.





The notice to keeper is flawed.

As discussed above, there is no relevant contract.

The vehicle has not been specified as there is no make or model specified. The period of parking has not been specified, merely a time. The notice does not state that payment has not been made in full. The statutory warning is incorrect.

The notice to keeper being flawed means the operator cannot rely on Pofa as the state and with the drivers identity being unknown the charge should be cancelled.





M1

[Brettb]

Re: London Parking Solutions

M1,
Thank you for all this and I will copy and paste it on to the IAS appeal section tonight.

Just want to point out that they do know that I am the driver of the vehicle as I had to add that when I was going through the first stage of the appeal with the IAS.

I will let you know how I get on.

what should I expect back - still "feck off and gives us your money and see you in court"?

Brett

[mystery1]

Re: London Parking Solutions

M1,
Thank you for all this and I will copy and paste it on to the IAS appeal section tonight.

Just want to point out that they do know that I am the driver of the vehicle as I had to add that when I was going through the first stage of the appeal with the IAS.

I will let you know how I get on.

what should I expect back - still "feck off and gives us your money and see you in court"?

Brett

I expect so. Plead ignorance on that, the system is designed to do that which is remarkably unfair.

M1