G24 Ltd - PCN Letter arrived after 14 days (20 days exact)

[enjoylife]

Hi all, I received a Parking Charge Notice from G24 on 17th Aug for an alleged offence that took place on 27th July; it states 90 mins parking time limit and actual parking time as 101 mins. The issue date on the letter is shown as 4th Aug but it was only received on 17th Aug along with other regular daily posts. As this letter was received more than 14 days (20 days exactly) after the alleged offence (and there was nothing physical left on the vehicle), I appealed to the notice on 17th Aug itself (on the basis the liability cannot be passed from the driver at the time to the keeper) using the template found on this forum as below:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


I have just received a response to my appeal this morning (29th Aug) with basically a standard response saying the letter was issued within timescales and trying to force me to share driver details.

Please see the redacted PCN letter and appeal response attached. Would appreciate your help and support in how this can be further appealed, complained or responded to - many thanks.

tag charitynjw ostell des8

[enjoylife]

With Attachments...

[des8]

They are correct in that they have complied with the timescales. (a letter is deemed delivered within two days unless the recipient can prove otherwise
(protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA 2012) Schedule 4 Sec 9 (6))

You now need to appeal to IAS as stated in the letter (this is because if the matter reaches court you are expected to try and resolve matters before that happens)

Photos of the parking signs would be useful

The most obvious appeal grounds are based on the duration of stay, which exceeded permitted time by 11 minutes.
If the signs carry the IPC logo their code of conduct has to be followed
That code states the company must allow the motorist "consideration time" at the beginning of the parking to enable familiarisation with the T& Cs.
Also must be allowed a ten minute "grace period" at the end of permitted parking.

Take into account that the cameras operate when entering and leaving the car park, and do not actually record the time parked and the driver was well within the permitted times.

However you need to check the wording of the signs

Do not expect an IAS appeal to go in your favour, it is just a process you need to go through before reaching court where you have a fair chance of winning

[enjoylife]

des8 Thanks for your response

So for letter delivery, there is no proof on when G24 actually posted the letter. The issue date on letter can be printed as any date really and what actually matters is when the letter was posted by them. I have checked and since it’s a generic pre paid letter, there is no easy way to confirm when it was posted. What’s the best way around this as it’s definitely been posted/delivered after 14 days? Does having witness from neighbours / wife to confirm when letter was received help?

With regards to the exceeding permitted time by 11 mins, thanks for highlighting the consideration time and the fact cameras just take pics when car comes in/out and not whilst parked. I was aware of the grace period of 10 mins but looks like the seconds have exactly matched in timings showed to make it 11 mins! I’ll try and get a pic of the sign and post it here tomorrow.

Meanwhile as a next step, is it worth doing a further appeal / complaint to G24 or better go straight to IAG or probably do both? And is there a sample template / text for this IAS appeal please? Many thanks for all your support.

[des8]

Unfortunately your wife's testimony regarding delivery of the NTK will not be regarded as independent.

Your neighbour's might be, but to what extent is she/he a witness?
Did she/he witness that particular item being delivered, and then keep it in view until it was opened?
If yes would she/he be prepared to go to court for you?

Don't know of any templates, but you can always post up a copy before sending your appeal.
No harm sending to both as IAS will send a copy to G24 anyway

[enjoylife]

Thanks des8

With regards to delivery to the NTK, my neighbour can probably witness and confirm they saw the postman delivering the letter on the day. But that's about it, so if it doesn't help we can ignore this or add it anyway to put weight on the case if you feel it may help.

Attached is a picture of the signage at alleged parking site as requested. Would appreciate if you can review and advise.

For "consideration time", would be great if you can provide some words around this or point me in the direction where I can find more info on this to help draft my letter. I can then draft and share an appeal letter to IAS.

Many thanks for your continued support in this matter.

[des8]

Forget about late delivery of NTK.

Re signage: Did you have the landowner's permission to park your vehicle on the land? If so was your vehicle authorised?

[enjoylife]

Forget about late delivery of NTK.

Re signage: Did you have the landowner's permission to park your vehicle on the land? If so was your vehicle authorised?

Thanks for your response des8

As far as I am aware, there is no obvious or clearly defined mechanism to get any authorisation or landlord's permission to park. The car park in question is simply part of B&M store and from what I can see, it is open to freely park there by anyone and no vehicles have any authorisation or specific permission from anyone.

[des8]

Well that is just fine.

The NTK refers to a contractual charge.
However that parking sign is forbidding to those who do not have permission to park.
One cannot contract to do something which is forbidden.

That sign clearly states that parking is available solely for those who are authorised and have the landowners permission.
So if you park there without permission you are trespassing, and the T&Cs won't actually apply to you as a trespasser.
They only apply to those who park there with permission..
Those who have permission, but then exceed the time allowed, become trespassers at that moment, so the £90 can't apply to them,
The redress for trespass is damages ffor which the LANDOWNER needs to sue.

At the bottom it states in small font "Terms of Parking without permission"
In other words a completely different set if T&Cs if you trespass, and the only one states the driver agrees to the registered keeper receiving a parking charge.
That is pure B******T
The driver can't commit a tort and bind another to pay a penalty, especially when a predetermined penalty cannot be levied
Again as it is a trespass it is for the landowner to sue for damages


You can read the IPC code of Practice here: https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6...ractice_v8.pdf
The sections you are interested in are on page 21 sections 13.1 & 13.2

I would keep the appeal to IAS centred around the time spent in the park, and the application of consideration and grace periods..
IAS are likely to reject your appeal, as they always do, so just keep your powder dry for the next round.

Be careful not to identify the driver

[enjoylife]

Thanks a lot for all your help des8

I am glad to update I have managed to get the notice cancelled using the help of the store manager - who luckily in this case was kind enough to understand help out.

Hence, no need for any further appeals and hassle - pleased to get this closed.

One again thanks to you and this forum - extremely helpful.

[des8]

Well done, but try and obtain confirmation in writing from the store manager and the parking company that the charges have been waived.
It is not unknown for charges to be resurrected 5 years later, so keep all correspondence safe