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Parking company unable to prove pcn delivery date with no stamp-date on envelope ?

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  • Parking company unable to prove pcn delivery date with no stamp-date on envelope ?

    A PCN was posted to the registered keeper's address later than the required 14 days

    The 28 day for appeal expires in a couple of days.

    The RK has therefore not been provided with adequate time to prepare an appeal or to consider reduced payment within 14 days which had elapsed before the delivery of the PCN.

    There is no stamp- date on the envelope.

    The Parking company will probably reject any appeal on this basis and most likely argue that the PCN was sent within the time frame, but how can they prove that without a stamp-dated envelope?

    Is it not the company's responsibility to adequately cover itself by ensuring it's PCN's are posted with a stamp- dated envelope?

    How have appeals related to this gone in the past?

    How would this stand in court if it was argued that the PCN was invalid because it was delivered later the required timeframe?

    An early reply would be much appreciated due to the 28 appeal window ending very soon.


    A.R. West

    Tags: None

  • #2

    A notice sent by post is " presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered ..... on the second working day after the day on which it is posted;" (POFA 2012 schedule 4 sec 9 (6) (my italics)

    Presumably the notice is dated, so it is for you to prove delivery was late.

    Probably better to look for other failures on part of the company


    • #3
      So what dates are on the PCN? In fact why not post up the PCN?

      The parking companies don't use royal mail, it costs too much.

      You can use the fact that you received the PCN too late then ask the parking company to show when they put the envelope into the royal mail system.


      • #4

        Firstly, thanks for your prompt reply it really helps with such a short time left to appeal.

        Well that clears up the late arrival issue... nothing to appeal there then.

        The driver will not been named on any appeal submitted and they would therefore be including the registered keeper into the contract by pursuing the registered keeper for liability.

        In this case, wouldn't the registered keeper be within their rights to request for any information from.the PPC before the consideration of any payment to the PPC.

        For instance, there is an issue on the PCN regarding the APNR photographs.... the times of entrance and exit are disputed and appear to be incompliant with the regulations set out by the relevant bodies.

        The times appear to have been superimposed with a black background block onto the photograph rather than being part of the photograph.

        Would an appeal disputing superimposed times on the photographs carry sufficient strength on the basis that they do not form part of the original photographs and appear to have been placed onto the photographs at a later stage.

        if so then the functionality of the APNR system could also be questioned, as BPA and the other relevant bodies seem to be quite strict on usage and maintenance of this equipment.

        So considering that they have involved the registered keeper for liability, then are they required to provide evidence upon request that the APNR equipment has been properly maintained regularly and adequately as is required by the relevant appropriate bodies.



        • #5
          From what I can see, the following issues of appeal left to me:-

          Inadequate signage - signs displaying time allowance and their ts&cs are not placed on entry or indeed at the first half of the car park.

          Incompliant signage - signage does not show grace period.

          PCN photos - The times of entry and exit are disputed. They appear to have been superimposed with a black background block onto the photograph rather than being part of the photograph.

          Contradictory PCN – back of PCN ‘instructs’ RK to provide driver details. Front of PCN ‘invites’ RK to provide driver details. Does this make the PCN incompliant.

          Unless Ive missed something, the rest of the PCN and car park signage appear to be compliant.

          If these arguments do not stand then no point in appealing and I will give driver details. In this instance, will the driver be given the option of paying at the discounted rate even though the RK has responded after the 14 day discount rate.

          If diverting me to the newbies thread then please provide a relevant link,. I have already searched there extensively for these answers without success.

          Please don’t ignore this post as the previous one, if no time to reply then just say so and I will stop posting



          • #6
            Without seeing the signage or the pcn it is hard to comment on your assertions
            ostell suggested you post up the PCN

            You can identify the driver anytime and the company will have to issue him/her with a new PCN which should have the discount and discontinue their action against you.

            So post up a redacted copy of the PCN and we will check it for you


            • #7
              ANPR cameras show a photo of the car and a separate photo of the number plate. Nothing new there.

              You can still bring up the late arrival. Let them show when they put it into the royal mail system.

              Signage does not have to show grace period.

              Contradictory PCN. Why? They state something in a different manner.

              Why are you complaining about your posts being ignored? Instant answers ? See a solicitor.

              This is manned by volunteers who are giving some of their precious time to help others.

              Why not help yourself by providing information requested? Use imgur to host document and post link on here.


              • #8
                Firstly my apologies if I came across a little anxious.

                I can see that a question I posted yesterday did not go through so my apologies for that, I am new to the site and still trying to get used to posting and navigation.

                An update on the situation is that the retailer has finally emailed me and confirmed that they have asked the PPC to waiver the PCN.

                Are the PPC legally obliged to follow this instruction from the retailer or can they ignore and still pursue the RK for the PCN.

                Who has final say on such matters.

                I only ask because if I still have to appeal then I have to prepare and submit it by tomorrow midnight.

                The retailer confirmed that they would update me on a reply from the PPC but I may not get that till after the midnight deadline tomorrow.

                Thank you again


                • #9
                  If the PPC's contract is with the retailer, yes they should waive the charge, but it also depends on their contract.

                  Why not post up a copy of the PCN to enable us possibly point out further non compliance with PoFA?


                  • #10
                    hi thanks for your reply
                    How can it be established with whom the PPCs contract is with?
                    Ive uploaded the CPCN front and back.


                    • #11
                      Unable to upload a doc file .....message saying upload at least one photos.. ...any ideas on how to upload doc files? would like to post a first draft of the appeal I intend to send with the notice of cancellation from the retailer.
                      Would appreciate any advise before sending.


                      • #12
                        Have copy and pasted doc instead.....this is first draft.....would appreciate any advise before sending...thanks

                        Dear Sirs/Mdms

                        PLEASE NOTE: The registered keeper and it’s POA’s are in receipt of notice from the management at Wickes, Halifax Branch, who have confirmed that they have required cancellation of the said CPCN from G24 Ltd.

                        Any further correspondence sent to the registered keeper by G24 Ltd or any of it’s related third parties, other than to confirm the same will be regarded as harrassment and will be legally dealt with in accordance with the law.


                        The CPCN is disputed andthe registered keeper denies any liability or contractual agreement.

                        There is no legal requirement to provide driver detailswhether known or otherwise. None are given and no assumptions can be drawn.

                        1) The said allegedCPCN is incompliant with the requirements ofSchedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Namely, but not limited to (2)(a) and (9)(3)

                        The said alleged CPCN fails to:-

                        (2)(a) Specify the the period of parking to which the notice relates

                        (9)(3) The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a)

                        2)The said allegedCPCN is incompliant with the requirements ofBPA Code of Practice A8.2(e)

                        A8.2(e)Signage must e be placed at the entrance to the site, and there must be enough signs placed in other locations throughout

                        The relevant contractual signage is not evident and visible in all areas of the car-park. Upon inspection the car-park can be seen to be split into two sites. The upper half of the site which forms part of the retailer’s entrance contains no contractual signage and customers that park in this area are required to walk down to the lower half of the sitein order to view and read the contractual signage.

                        The only other contractual signage is within the disabled area which is neither visible or accessble to non-disabled customers.

                        The registered keeper has therefore no liability in this matter.

                        Should the creditors continue to pursue for keeper liability, then the Registered keeper will require conclusive evidence that all matters related to the said alleged CPCN are correct and accurate before anyfurther considerationcan be given to the said alleged CPCN.

                        As such the following is requested:-

                        1)Photographic evidence that confirm the actual parking times of the said vehicle.This should include time-stamps that form part of the same photographs and that have notbeen added or superimposed onto the photograph at a separate stage or time as is allegedly the case on the present photographs shown on the said alleged CPCN.

                        2) An updated agreement between G24 Ltd and The Landowner

                        3)The times stated on the photographs are disputed. Theyappear to have been added on and do not form part of the same photograph and may therefore not be accurate. Therefore please provide proof ofupdated maintenance by the named contracted technician of the APNR equipment that is in operationat the said site.

                        4)The actual grace period agreed by the landowner which at present is not shown on the contractual signage on the said site.

                        5)The delivery date of the said alleged CPCN.is disputed. There is presently no evidence that it was posted and delivered within the required set period of 14 days. Therefore evidence of the actual Royal Mail posting times are required.

                        The registered keeper and it’s attorneys understand that the creditor is not obliged to present the above stated requirements at this stage of appeal, but it is reminded that it will be required to do so at a later stage in the form of an SAR directly to the creditor.

                        The registered keeper and it’s attorneys understand that for the purpose of the court, all courses of appeal should be seen to have been followed. As such, the creditors are requested to provide the required details in order to proceed to an independant appeal.

                        The registered keeper and it’s attorneys not give any consent for their personal details/data to be used without prior notification to and consent from the same, in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice and the Data Protection Act 2018. Any evidence to the contrary will again be dealt with in accordance with the law.

                        Yours sincerely


                        • #13
                          Had a quick look and wondering what all this mention of attorneys is .about.
                          the use of legalese language doesn't help.

                          I've just visited Wickes in Halifax on Google Earth and whar i think you refer to as the upper car park has one sign high on a post in the centre and possibly five affixed to the walls.
                          The signs in the lower car park seem to be affixed to the wall at about 4 foot high, and could easily be obscured from view by vans.
                          There does not appear to be a sign at the entrance.
                          unfortunately cannot read the signs and cannot comment on whether or not they are capable of forming a contract.
                          I think the BPA Code of Practice 2020 referencing signs is para 19

                          The PCN does specify a period of parking, contrary to your assertion.
                          However it is probably only the time of arrival and departure in the park, and will not take into account time looking or waiting for a space.
                          Did the driver spend time looking fo a parking space?

                          Hopefully ostell will pick up on this and give you more detailed advice


                          • #14
                            Attorneys meaning Power of Attorneys...the registered keeper is being represented by his/her POAs.

                            Have uploaded the contractual notice and some other photos of the car-park site in question.

                            thanks again


                            • #15
                              regarding the attorney: if this matter proceeds to court he will have to be appointed "litigation friend" by the court if he is to represent you.

                              Still can't read that notice. but one wonders about limiting the use of a car park for 90 minutes for shopping and then slapping a £100 charge for exceeding that limit whilst in the shop.

                              As a matter of interest is there any possibility of paying for parking after that 90 minutes has expired?
                              If not it might be possible to argue that if parking is not allowed after 90 minutes then there can be no contract to park after that time.
                              If there is no contract, there can be no charge for parking, as one would be a trespasser.

                              ostell for thoughts?


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