UKPC charge for "parking on roadway" in residential estate I live in. Please help.

[xninjanon]

Hello lovely helpful people,

I've dug around a bit but have not been able to find an exact case like this on the forum so I would really appreciate any help.

At 01:31 AM yesterday, UKPC put a load of parking charge notices on all cars parked on the road around the residential estate I live in. They clearly waited for everyone to be asleep before chucking a load of tickets around the estate. I have a parking bay around the back of the flat so I was fine but my girlfriend's car out front of the flat got a ticket. There are clear double yellow lines around the estate but no one was parked on that. Everyone that got a ticket was just parked on the road without yellow lines and wasn't blocking entrance or access in any way. There is a sign around the estate for "No unauthorised parking" but people have been parking in the estate like this for years. I've lived here for 2 years and never had this issue.

Please see link below for some pictures of the estate/cars, sign and the ticket. I tried uploading here but there was an issue with resolution.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/v9ZZ57WNQNRJPJCz9

HML manage the estate and we've spoken with the manager there about this and they say they can't help.

I will appeal but wanted help from someone more clued up on the law to guide me on what I should say in the appeal, please.

Thank you in advance!

[islandgirl]

Why don't you all get together and appeal?

[ostell]

Everyone appeals AS THE KEEPER so that the appeal arrives on day 26, just before they can apply to the DVLA for keeper details. One appeal is that the signs are forbidding in that they are not offering a contract to park and to claim that a contract to park existed when it is expressly forbidden is perverse. Without that contract there can be no breach of contract and therefore no charge. Also the signs are not readily visible. I am sure you can find other reasons.

The idea is to set up a conversation with them so that a Notice to Keeper is not issued within 56 days or they do not contact the DVLA for the keeper details. Either of which is a POFA fail and no keeper liability.

Who is this HML management? If they hired them then they can do something about it.

Quick check with your local authority to see if the roads have been adopted.

[xninjanon]

Everyone appeals AS THE KEEPER so that the appeal arrives on day 26, just before they can apply to the DVLA for keeper details. One appeal is that the signs are forbidding in that they are not offering a contract to park and to claim that a contract to park existed when it is expressly forbidden is perverse. Without that contract there can be no breach of contract and therefore no charge. Also the signs are not readily visible. I am sure you can find other reasons.

The idea is to set up a conversation with them so that a Notice to Keeper is not issued within 56 days or they do not contact the DVLA for the keeper details. Either of which is a POFA fail and no keeper liability.

Who is this HML management? If they hired them then they can do something about it.

Quick check with your local authority to see if the roads have been adopted.

Hi Ostell, thanks for your message. So does everyone have to appeal as one? Because I know some people have already appealed. I didn't want to make a rash decision to appeal without seeking advice. I also didn't understand any of the appeal points you made about the sign not offering a contract and the sign not being visible. I'm sorry, I'm not very clued up on this so don't understand these things. I would be in your debt if you could provide me with a template for the appeal with the points of the appeal. I'm struggling with this at the moment.

Just to clarify, there is a sign right opposite where the cars are parked. You can see in one of the pictures of the Dacia.

So should the appeal be sent 26 days after the ticket date? In that case, I will lose the ability to pay at the reduced price in case they decline the appeal. Is that the best way to go?

I've googled Notice to Keeper and POFA so I think I understand your point about delaying it a bit so that I have better chances of them messing up. But I would really appreciate ongoing help as I get further correspondence from them after my appeal to figure out next steps, please.

HML group is a huge property management company. Known widely for their nefarious method of management and overcharging residents (at least in our estate). They've been nothing but a pain in the a** the entire time I've lived here. They don't look after the estate, they overcharge service charges. They're always late with the charges and never help with issues. Not sure what we can do about the tickets in relation to them, to be honest.

I googled it - the road has not been adopted by the local authority.

Thanks so much again! I really do appreciate the help. Very kind of you.

[ostell]

The PCN is an invoice for a payment under a contract made between the PPC and the driver. Where does the sign offer a contract to park? It doesn't. Without a contract there can be no breach of contract and no charge. What they are trying to do is issue a penalty which is not allowed.

Make you own appeal using the timings suggested. You are appealing as the keeper, they do not know the identity of the driver and you, the keeper do not have to tell them. To be able to claim from the keeper they have to issue a Notice to Keeper and there are strict POFA rules on requirements to hold the keeper liable. They may write to you to reject the appeal, which is what you want, and you spin the correspondence out beyond day 56 when they can no longer issue a valid NTK. You have given them your name and address as the keeper and they will continue using this but if the haven't applied to the DVLA for the keepers details then they can't hold the keeper liable. Make a small insignificant error in your address when you write to them so that the address is different from the address the DVLA hold and you will know if they have applied to the DVLA for your details.

For appeal points throw in as much as possible, even question their right to operate. Just trying to get to day 56.

[xninjanon]

I have drafted this, would someone mind checking it and advising of some improvements?

"
To whom it may concern,


I am contacting you to formally appeal my parking ticket ref:_____ dated 22.04.2022.


I am appealing for the following reasons:

• The signs provided in the estate are forbidding and therefore do not create a contract and therefore no breach of contract has occurred.
• The signage is positioned way above head-height and is therefore not clearly visible, and cannot be considered reasonably placed.
• The car was parked legally and not in an obstructive manner.

I therefore request that you void this ticket.
"

Many thanks in advance all.

[xninjanon]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help so far. I submitted the appeal as the keeper on the 25/26th day. See below my appeal letter. UKPC have responded to this, i will post their reply in the next message.

I, the keeper of the vehicle, am challenging your parking charge notice dated 22.04.2022. The driver of the vehicle is not identified as there are no legal grounds to do so. I deny any liability as the registered keeper for the following reasons. Please respond to each individual point that I state.
1. The supposed contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatsoever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe the driver of the vehicle has committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so the presence of the vehicle did not prevent the parking of other cars and their making of payments. The parking also did not cause any obstruction for other residents nor emergency services, nor was it located on any double yellow lines and hence was legally parked.
2. The driver of the vehicle saw no signage in the place where they parked or at the entrance to the area where they parked as signage is placed well above head height and not clearly visible whilst driving and upon exiting the vehicle. The requirements are that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area. Therefore neither the driver nor the registered keeper of the vehicle have entered into a contract with you and there cannot be a breach of contract.
3. Having examined your parking charge notice I, the keeper, believe it is a non compliant demand for payment for the following reason:
Your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt.
4. I understand that a Parking Charge Notice must also include the following which is absent from the notice you have provided and therefore it may be invalid:
Details of any additional charges which may be levied.
5. The rules of the BPA require you to allow a grace period either to allow a motorist to read the signs and make payment or decide whether parking is permitted, and at the end of a period of paid for time or maximum stay to allow for discrepancies in the time shown on different devices. A reasonable grace period would be 5 minutes but it may be that the owners of this site have instructed you to offer a different grace period. Please advise the actual grace period in operation so that I can assess whether you have acted reasonably. It appears that the ticket has been issued immediately after first sight of the vehicle and therefore you have not allowed a grace period as you have no proof that the vehicle had not just entered the site and left within the grace period. If you have proof that the vehicle was present for longer than a reasonable grace period, please provide it.
Finally, if this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
A copy of the contract which you allege the driver entered into when they parked.
Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where the vehicle was allegedly parked wrongly.
A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
A copy of all of the images that you have of the vehicle, under the Freedom of Information Act and the Data Protection Act.
A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.
If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.
I look forward to hearing from you.

[xninjanon]

UKPC responded with the below in an emailed PDF letter dated 6th June. I've been away in Ireland with family and not been checking my emails so only just getting around to this. I'm not sure where to go from here. I would really appreciate any help.


Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above parking charge.

We have made it clear on our parking charge notice, and all subsequent correspondence, that we are seeking payment of an outstanding parking charge, thereby clearly identifying ourselves as the creditor.

The contract between UK Parking Control Ltd and the landowner (or their managing agent) authorising us to provide parking management is confidential, and you are not entitled to view it.

UK Parking Control signage complies fully with the British Parking Association Code of Practice and we reject the suggestion that it is vague or misleading.

To assist us in making a decision regarding your appeal, please confirm the full name and address of the driver to our Appeals Department within seven days of the date of this letter.

This information may be confirmed by submitting another appeal on our website at www.ukpcappeals.co.uk, or by post to the address overleaf. Please ensure that if writing to us by post that you include the parking charge reference number and vehicle registration.

Failure to provide this information will give us no alternative other than to make our final decision based on the previous information received. At this stage a POPLA verification code will be provided.

The parking charge has been on hold whilst under appeal and may be settled in full at the reduced rate of £60.

Yours faithfully,
Appeals Department
UK Parking Control Limited

[ostell]

So it is now more than 56 days since the parking event (I think, please check) so they cannot no issue a NTK that complies with POFA and hence no keeper liability. That's why they are insistent on the drivers details.

You could delay things further by wrting to them as late as possible and telling them you are under no legal obligation to provide driver details.

You may also want to contact the DVLA to see if they have been contacted for the keeper details.

[xninjanon]

So it is now more than 56 days since the parking event (I think, please check) so they cannot no issue a NTK that complies with POFA and hence no keeper liability. That's why they are insistent on the drivers details.

You could delay things further by wrting to them as late as possible and telling them you are under no legal obligation to provide driver details.

You may also want to contact the DVLA to see if they have been contacted for the keeper details.

Thanks, Ostell.

It's the 55th day today so I'll keep my eye out for a NTK over the next week still.

Their appeal response letter asked for a response within 7 days of 6th June via another online appeal or by post. Since it's now 10 days over, is it still best to submit another appeal and say "I'm under no legal obligation to provide driver details"?

I'll call DVLA today to find that out. I'll keep you updated. Thanks.

[xninjanon]

Hello all,

Have some updates but unfortunately asking for help at the last minute here as I was really busy with my exams/graduation/work the last few months and kept forgetting to sort this out.

UKPC send a letter responding to the second appeal response I sent through the online portal saying "I'm under no legal obligation to provide driver details". Along with this letter is the NTK received in the same envelope. I've attached both here. This post was received/opened on Sunday 10th July, which is day 80 since the parking event. I recorded us opening the letter for proof of when we received it.

We contacted DVLA via phone and they said to email. So we emailed and they responded a few days ago saying we need to send the request via a form which we need to post which they will charge for and will take up to 8 weeks for a response so I have no idea when UKPC requested keeper details from DVLA. I can send them a post if that is the best course of action?

The appeal response letter which contains the POPLA reference says appeals to POPLA must be made within 28 days from the letter date which will be this Wednesday (3rd Aug). Also, I will lose the discounted rate of £60 if I appeal to POPLA.

What is best course of action now? Should I be appealing to POPLA (without info from DVLA) or should I just pay the charge now whilst I can get the discounted rate? If I should be appealing to POPLA, could someone please help me with the appeal please?

Thanks everyone.

[xninjanon]

Hello all,

Have some updates but unfortunately asking for help at the last minute here as I was really busy with my exams/graduation/work the last few months and kept forgetting to sort this out.

UKPC send a letter responding to the second appeal response I sent through the online portal saying "I'm under no legal obligation to provide driver details". Along with this letter is the NTK received in the same envelope. I've attached both here. This post was received/opened on Sunday 10th July, which is day 80 since the parking event. I recorded us opening the letter for proof of when we received it.

We contacted DVLA via phone and they said to email. So we emailed and they responded a few days ago saying we need to send the request via a form which we need to post which they will charge for and will take up to 8 weeks for a response so I have no idea when UKPC requested keeper details from DVLA. I can send them a post if that is the best course of action?

The appeal response letter which contains the POPLA reference says appeals to POPLA must be made within 28 days from the letter date which will be this Wednesday (3rd Aug). Also, I will lose the discounted rate of £60 if I appeal to POPLA.

What is best course of action now? Should I be appealing to POPLA (without info from DVLA) or should I just pay the charge now whilst I can get the discounted rate? If I should be appealing to POPLA, could someone please help me with the appeal please?

Thanks everyone.

Sorry didn't attach in last post.