Late Licensing Penalty charge

[arckane]

Hi All

I'm new to your forums but I have to say, it's a good place to look for advice. So, hello from me and I thought I'd also amuse you with my plight with the DVLA, following their procedures and still being fined (or, they are trying to!).

Back in December 2012 I sold my car to a friend of a friend. The V5C was filled out and sent off the following day and there in, forgotten about. A couple of months later I received my Tax Reminder through the post but low and behold, it states that if you have recently sold your car, you can ignore this. Being of the mind that 2 months isn't very long and understanding that the government has red tape the size of Jupiter wrapped around it, I carelessly disregarded and carried on my life. Next up, at the end of April I received a LAST CHANCE warning. I quickly filled this out stating that I'd sold my car in December, first class stamped it and slapped it in to the post.

May 23rd, my girlfriends 30th birthday, I opened up my mail as she's opening up her cards and lo and behold, it's the DVLA with a Late Licensing Penalty charge of £80, or £40 if I bend over and take it without lube within 28 days. I wrote them back a fine letter, without sarcasm or wit, stating that I had done my part and why were they fining me? Their response was unsigned and from a robot saying to pay it and they deemed I hadn't done the paperwork. How ever, if I wished to raise a INS101 to complain about the organisation (read government) or a V969723452737204 form to defend myself, then I could fight my case by way of an ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Forgetting all other wording at the moment, but that sounds like a terrifying title of someone that just wants to be mean and doesn't care about anything but bringing extreme pain in to your life. Anyhow, I filled out the documents and sent them back. As you guessed, Mr S Everest (wow, a mountain of an ENFORCEMENT OFFICER) deemed that I still owed them money.

I sent another letter saying what total idiocy this was considering that I have sent the paperwork, twice, and both times I haven't had an acknowledgement about the sale/transfer of my vehicle and then voila, one appears but so did another letter saying all further correspondence would be ignored. A couple of weeks ago I received notification from Collectica stating they were going to clamp my car (good luck, I don't own one and the one they are chasing was CRUSHED in February 2013) so I wrote them a polite email today stating that they need to back off while my dispute is in progress since I have now involved my local MP (who still hasn't gotten back to me as they are all on holiday, probably in the tropics and putting it through expenses) and with the Chief Executive, Mr Malcolm Dawson (DVLAMinisterials@dvla.gsi.gov.uk).

Here is a link to the work so far. I know it's a Facebook link, you don't need an account, I just made the album public. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152899705565581.1073741831.852310580&type =1&l=e7ac80670b

I'll keep you posted how it goes, I see this ending in court. I'll be stating the Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 which I've already used in part of my documents with the DVLA. Basically, it's now just a money making machine.

Anyways, peace out, I hope others manage to fight the system when they are wrongfully accused.

Regards

Karl

[charitynjw]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

Hi All

I'm new to your forums but I have to say, it's a good place to look for advice. So, hello from me and I thought I'd also amuse you with my plight with the DVLA, following their procedures and still being fined (or, they are trying to!).


Back in December 2012 I sold my car to a friend of a friend. The V5C was filled out and sent off the following day and there in, forgotten about. A couple of months later I received my Tax Reminder through the post but low and behold, it states that if you have recently sold your car, you can ignore this. Being of the mind that 2 months isn't very long and understanding that the government has red tape the size of Jupiter wrapped around it, I carelessly disregarded and carried on my life. Next up, at the end of April I received a LAST CHANCE warning. I quickly filled this out stating that I'd sold my car in December, first class stamped it and slapped it in to the post.

May 23rd, my girlfriends 30th birthday, I opened up my mail as she's opening up her cards and lo and behold, it's the DVLA with a Late Licensing Penalty charge of £80, or £40 if I bend over and take it without lube within 28 days. I wrote them back a fine letter, without sarcasm or wit, stating that I had done my part and why were they fining me? Their response was unsigned and from a robot saying to pay it and they deemed I hadn't done the paperwork. How ever, if I wished to raise a INS101 to complain about the organisation (read government) or a V969723452737204 form to defend myself, then I could fight my case by way of an ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Forgetting all other wording at the moment, but that sounds like a terrifying title of someone that just wants to be mean and doesn't care about anything but bringing extreme pain in to your life. Anyhow, I filled out the documents and sent them back. As you guessed, Mr S Everest (wow, a mountain of an ENFORCEMENT OFFICER) deemed that I still owed them money.

I sent another letter saying what total idiocy this was considering that I have sent the paperwork, twice, and both times I haven't had an acknowledgement about the sale/transfer of my vehicle and then voila, one appears but so did another letter saying all further correspondence would be ignored. A couple of weeks ago I received notification from Collectica stating they were going to clamp my car (good luck, I don't own one and the one they are chasing was CRUSHED in February 2013) so I wrote them a polite email today stating that they need to back off while my dispute is in progress since I have now involved my local MP (who still hasn't gotten back to me as they are all on holiday, probably in the tropics and putting it through expenses) and with the Chief Executive, Mr Malcolm Dawson (DVLAMinisterials@dvla.gsi.gov.uk).

Here is a link to the work so far. I know it's a Facebook link, you don't need an account, I just made the album public. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152899705565581.1073741831.852310580&type =1&l=e7ac80670b

I'll keep you posted how it goes, I see this ending in court. I'll be stating the Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 which I've already used in part of my documents with the DVLA. Basically, it's now just a money making machine.

Anyways, peace out, I hope others manage to fight the system when they are wrongfully accused.

Regards

Karl

Hi arckane, & welcome to Legal Beagles.

IMHO you will need more - some kind of proof of postage, even if only a sworn statement of a witness who was with you when posting the letter.

[arckane]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

Is my word not good enough? Does that automatically mean I'm guilty because the DVLA have said they didn't get something when they deal with hundreds of thousands of bits of paper a day and they missed mine? A quick internet search will bring back thousands of people in the same boat but I won't roll over because I shouldn't have to. I sent my documents fair and square.

[wales01man]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

Your doubting the word of the DVLA worker who has others to back them up? Sorry to say whether your guilty or not they will probably not accept your word they like all other Governments are always right HA HA buts its true . Good luck with the letter appeal I hope you win

[charitynjw]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

I don't doubt your honesty & sincerity at all, arckane; perish the very thought!

(Shame it's not me that you've got to convince, really! )

[arckane]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

There's two ways to look at this: 1) I'm a stingey get and don't want to pay £80 or 2) I'm innocent and want to prove that the 99% has a chance when going toe-to-toe using the legal system.

I've spent a lot of time reading up and watching TPUC/Free Man of the Land stuff and I get it, I do. The system isn't about to change any time soon and all the time that there is money there will be greed. The UK legal system is based upon money going to the crown and extracting that money as best as they can but in all essence, it should be done fairly. This is not fair, I did nothing wrong and I will fight my corner like a caged animal that's been subjected to One Direction songs for days on end.

Whether Judge Judy will see my case as clear cut or not remains to be seen.

Now, how do I politely tell Collectica to go and collect waste from their own toilets politely?.....

[wales01man]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

You can tell Collectica what you like until they are ordered to stop any action they will increase it and the charges Appealing to the DVLA seems to be the only action available to you.To find out how Collectica operate read some threads on LB.I believe you sent it off you have to PROVE it to the DVLA

[Galahad]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

Sorry no,the advice is wrong.

You dont need to prove anything to the DVLA, there is no requirement to provide proof of postage,so long as you put the logbook into a correctly stamped and addressed envelope and posted it in a Royal Mail post box, your job is done.

It is entirely down to the dvla to prove you didn't.

My advice to you would be to write a letter to the dvla telling them to withdraw collectica from collection activities and tell them to take you to court where you will defend yourself to a magistrate.

Make sure your telephone number is in the letter, that way they will call you before a court date asking for your defence, you politely tell them they will hear it in court and not before.

They will drop it before court.

If they dont, then you will be quoting Section 7 of the interpretations act 1978 and writing a declaration that you sent it.

[labman]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

When they did this to me, I simply wrote to them asking them to look back at my long history with them, and the fact that every time I'd notified them of an owner change. Why would I suddenly stop now?

They stopped pursuing me.

Maybe I was lucky, or maybe others are making it unnecessarily complex?

[wales01man]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

just like RLP and parking eye ETC. they are praying on peoples ignorance of the law and rules its like them gambling bet they come out on top

[arckane]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

We have updates.

I had a response from my MP taking it to the Chief Executive of the DVLA and then a lovely letter from Mr Chatham on Mr Dawson's behalf.

Long story short, the content of the letter (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1&l=738df508a5) states the wrong order of events and that even though I tried twice to tell them I had sold the car, they feel justified that I hadn't and therefore will be fining me, albeit at a reduced rate of £40 as they are nice like that.

Well, sorry, but I've gone this far and there's a sensation of being chaffed between the butt cheeks and I won't be sitting down and taking this gently.

I have penned a new email, to both my MP and to Mr Chatham of the DVLA. Here it is:

Dear MrHenderson and Mr Chatham


I ampretty much at my wits end in regards to the DVLA and the handling ofmy case. Mr Chatham, you wrote to me on behalf of Mr Dawson butit seems that although you claim to have gone over my correspondenceand looked at the content on my Facebook link I sent, you have failedto actually gleam the correct information.


In yourletter, you state that under CR that it is a legal requirement that Ihave MY car taxed or SORN at all times. This, I totallyunderstand. You then state the registered keeper is responsiblefor this. Again, I totally understand. This is where youtime line skews entirely.


The V5Cwas sent in December as I sold the car, I did not have it dismantled,that was the person that bought the car from me. Upon sellingthe car I sent the DVLA the correct information in the post, viaRoyal Mail. Your own governing law states by the InterpretationAct 1978, Section 7 "Wherean Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post(whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or“send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contraryintention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properlyaddressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the documentand, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the timeat which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course ofpost.". There by I have done my part. You alsostate in your letter that "We advise that the disposingkeeper should contact our Customer Enquiry Unit if they fail toreceive such a letter", it's not a law and there fore I am NOTin the wrong. If you had replied how ever and I had complainedI hadn't gotten the form, what's the chances that your agency wouldspout the InterpretationAct 1978, Section 7?


Let mestate, again, the actual chronology: I sold the car in Decemberand sent you the correct forms. I didn't receive notificationbut alas, I didn't need notification as I had sent the formregardless. In March I received a notification to tax the carwhich I ignored as it stated that if I had sold the car, I couldignore this. In April I received a Last Change warning on the15th. This letter had an attachment for me to fill in had Isold the car and to do so if I hadn't received a notification fromyou. I did this and sent it within 24hrs of receiving. Pleasebear in mind that the letter was dated the 15th of April, (yourletter to me, Mr Chatham, was dated the 3rd September but the stampon the envelope is the 9th Septemeber so it takes 6 days to actuallyget a letter out of your doors) which is a clear 2 weeks before Maywhere you decided that I hadn't sent you anything. When Ireceived the LLP on the 23rd of May (dated 20th May) I responded toyou by phone where I duly got cut off, twice costing me in phonecalls which were wasted. I then wrote to you on the same day asI couldn't get to someone by phone on the 23rd and I posted it thevery same day. It then took until the 28th for someone withinthe DVLA to finally update the records.


So, ittook me 3 attempts to finally get you to update your records and itcouldn't be sent to the normal address and had to go through aspecial department. How inept is that? Interestinglyenough I am seeing an awful lot of these posts all over the internetwhere the DVLA are failing to update records and then fining people. This is not a good look for a government agency that issupposed to be efficient.


You haveallowed me until the 27th of September to pay a reduced fine for anLLP which has been created in total error as far as sense isconcerned. I am in debates of whether to pay this fine oractually go to court since I have done nothing wrong. I feeltotally let down by the DVLA and I wouldn't be going to this lengthif I felt I was in any way in the wrong. Please look back atthis letter and reconsider whether or not I should be fined for theDVLAs failure to process documents.




Regards

Yes, I know the emotion is coming out now, but I think it's time to try and get some more publicity. I know 2 other people who also had their V5C forms ignored and then received LLP fines too. This seems to be getting to a stage where it's done on purpose so that the DVLA make more money via taxes. It's also a civil matter so they can sue/court for whatever amount of money they deem fit. I am not a happy bunny in the slightest.

Thoughts?

[arckane]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

We have updates.

I had a response from my MP taking it to the Chief Executive of the DVLA and then a lovely letter from Mr Chatham on Mr Dawson's behalf.

Long story short, the content of the letter (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1&l=738df508a5) states the wrong order of events and that even though I tried twice to tell them I had sold the car, they feel justified that I hadn't and therefore will be fining me, albeit at a reduced rate of £40 as they are nice like that.

Well, sorry, but I've gone this far and there's a sensation of being chaffed between the butt cheeks and I won't be sitting down and taking this gently.

I have penned a new email, to both my MP and to Mr Chatham of the DVLA. Here it is:

Dear MrHenderson and Mr Chatham


I ampretty much at my wits end in regards to the DVLA and the handling ofmy case. Mr Chatham, you wrote to me on behalf of Mr Dawson butit seems that although you claim to have gone over my correspondenceand looked at the content on my Facebook link I sent, you have failedto actually gleam the correct information.


In yourletter, you state that under CR that it is a legal requirement that Ihave MY car taxed or SORN at all times. This, I totallyunderstand. You then state the registered keeper is responsiblefor this. Again, I totally understand. This is where youtime line skews entirely.


The V5Cwas sent in December as I sold the car, I did not have it dismantled,that was the person that bought the car from me. Upon sellingthe car I sent the DVLA the correct information in the post, viaRoyal Mail. Your own governing law states by the InterpretationAct 1978, Section 7 "Wherean Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post(whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or“send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contraryintention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properlyaddressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the documentand, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the timeat which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course ofpost.". There by I have done my part. You alsostate in your letter that "We advise that the disposingkeeper should contact our Customer Enquiry Unit if they fail toreceive such a letter", it's not a law and there fore I am NOTin the wrong. If you had replied how ever and I had complainedI hadn't gotten the form, what's the chances that your agency wouldspout the InterpretationAct 1978, Section 7?


Let mestate, again, the actual chronology: I sold the car in Decemberand sent you the correct forms. I didn't receive notificationbut alas, I didn't need notification as I had sent the formregardless. In March I received a notification to tax the carwhich I ignored as it stated that if I had sold the car, I couldignore this. In April I received a Last Change warning on the15th. This letter had an attachment for me to fill in had Isold the car and to do so if I hadn't received a notification fromyou. I did this and sent it within 24hrs of receiving. Pleasebear in mind that the letter was dated the 15th of April, (yourletter to me, Mr Chatham, was dated the 3rd September but the stampon the envelope is the 9th Septemeber so it takes 6 days to actuallyget a letter out of your doors) which is a clear 2 weeks before Maywhere you decided that I hadn't sent you anything. When Ireceived the LLP on the 23rd of May (dated 20th May) I responded toyou by phone where I duly got cut off, twice costing me in phonecalls which were wasted. I then wrote to you on the same day asI couldn't get to someone by phone on the 23rd and I posted it thevery same day. It then took until the 28th for someone withinthe DVLA to finally update the records.


So, ittook me 3 attempts to finally get you to update your records and itcouldn't be sent to the normal address and had to go through aspecial department. How inept is that? Interestinglyenough I am seeing an awful lot of these posts all over the internetwhere the DVLA are failing to update records and then fining people. This is not a good look for a government agency that issupposed to be efficient.


You haveallowed me until the 27th of September to pay a reduced fine for anLLP which has been created in total error as far as sense isconcerned. I am in debates of whether to pay this fine oractually go to court since I have done nothing wrong. I feeltotally let down by the DVLA and I wouldn't be going to this lengthif I felt I was in any way in the wrong. Please look back atthis letter and reconsider whether or not I should be fined for theDVLAs failure to process documents.




Regards

Yes, I know the emotion is coming out now, but I think it's time to try and get some more publicity. I know 2 other people who also had their V5C forms ignored and then received LLP fines too. This seems to be getting to a stage where it's done on purpose so that the DVLA make more money via taxes. It's also a civil matter so they can sue/court for whatever amount of money they deem fit. I am not a happy bunny in the slightest.

Thoughts?

[Galahad]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

We have updates.

I had a response from my MP taking it to the Chief Executive of the DVLA and then a lovely letter from Mr Chatham on Mr Dawson's behalf.

Long story short, the content of the letter (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1&l=738df508a5) states the wrong order of events and that even though I tried twice to tell them I had sold the car, they feel justified that I hadn't and therefore will be fining me, albeit at a reduced rate of £40 as they are nice like that.

Well, sorry, but I've gone this far and there's a sensation of being chaffed between the butt cheeks and I won't be sitting down and taking this gently.

I have penned a new email, to both my MP and to Mr Chatham of the DVLA. Here it is:




Yes, I know the emotion is coming out now, but I think it's time to try and get some more publicity. I know 2 other people who also had their V5C forms ignored and then received LLP fines too. This seems to be getting to a stage where it's done on purpose so that the DVLA make more money via taxes. It's also a civil matter so they can sue/court for whatever amount of money they deem fit. I am not a happy bunny in the slightest.

Thoughts?

Be irritating is generally the key with DVLA.

They've just sent me a LLP, and they've as much chance of me paying it as Cheryl Cole has of showing me in person her new posterior placed tattoos.

You need to be FIRM with them, state categorically that under NO circumstances will you pay their fine of £40 or £80, and that they are to desist in any further demands for monies, and that you'll argue your case in court.

This puts them on the back foot, you're not persuaded by their 'reduction' in the fine, and are happy to defend yourself in court. They however are not happy to goto court, because someone whos determined to defend themselves, is likely to be forewarned and be prepared and found not guilty.

I'd also refrain from using email when contacting DVLA, i'd be sending recorded delivery letters direct to them and dealing with them that way, papertrail and evidence should they actually push their luck and goto court.

I'm about to pen a new missive to them, i'm bored of my old one, I shall be mostly going the route of taking the mickey out of them, and letting them know just how much contempt I have for them.

[labman]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

It would be interesting to submit a FOI request about this issue, as we see it cropping up time and time again. Does anyone have a suggested wording for such a request?

[arckane]

Re: Late Licensing Penalty charge

Sorry to dig up this old post, but the saga continues.

I now have full backing of my MP who has written to Jackie Manser-Thomas of the Complaint Resolution Team Manager. She still thinks I'm in the wrong even after the paperwork backwards and forwards and I'm sure this has cost far more than the £80 fine in time and effort. Even my MP has told me I should just pay the £40; "meanwhile, I urge you to pay the reduced LLP to prevent any legal action by the DVLA". That just shows the confidence of the MP in the legal system under the firepower of the DVLA.

J Manser-Thomas has stated "I cannot find any evidence to support the withdrawal of enforcement action and he remains liable." So, car was sold, V5C sent off. Vehicle was destroyed, I got a Last Chance which I responded to by 1st class stamp, I got an LLP. Amazing.

Well, to court it is. I am NOT paying a fine for a crime I did not commit. The Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 will have to be declared or though I would love for common sense to reign.