Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

No worries, I shall wait for [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION] to post it up. I doubt this will go as far as court but we can still process a complaint to the Ombudsman regarding this and get it dropped. If you do find something on there let us know, they should have removed all outstanding sums from the credit file since it has been terminated and they can't put the damages on there because they are not a recognised debt unless the court agrees in their favour.

Hello Kati has uploaded the letter we received. What do you think? They have repeated themselves on a charge they are willing to drop but still included that item on the charges?!

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello Lauren,

Waht do you of the charges? If there is no dmaage or its minor then you can challenge it. Obviously they need to take into account any damage from stone chips and other things which are always going to be beyond your control but ultimately it is up to them to prove not you. If they are adamant that the charges should stand they seem to have written off almost 50% of the alleged damages out of the blue, I wonder why that is..

I think the next step then will be to make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman and go from there.

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello Lauren,

Waht do you of the charges? If there is no dmaage or its minor then you can challenge it. Obviously they need to take into account any damage from stone chips and other things which are always going to be beyond your control but ultimately it is up to them to prove not you. If they are adamant that the charges should stand they seem to have written off almost 50% of the alleged damages out of the blue, I wonder why that is..

I think the next step then will be to make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman and go from there.

Hi r0b,

So I worked out that 8 weeks from my
Original letter would take us to next week so I have drafted another letter to repaint to GMAC. I have posted it up here, thought if you had time you could give it a quick read and see what you think? I mean for me I'm not happy with any of the charges and I feel like they're just trying to get any amount out of me, like you said he fact they have dropped nearly half and also contradicted themselves on taking off a charge but yet it's still on the 'damages we're charging you for list' it just seems like their trying anything to get something. Anyway here is my letter:

Dear Sir/Madam,



Agreement number:

Vehicle Registration:



I am writing concerning the above matter in relation to my voluntary termination of the hire-purchase agreement.

As stated in my previous email dated 18th April 2016 The Consumer Credit Act only requires the vehicle to be in reasonable condition however, this does not imply that the vehicle must be the same standard as if it were being used for commercial purposes which are what the BVRLA guidelines are intended for. The above vehicle was only used for private use and in no way used for any business purposes.



When Manheim did the vehicle inspection I did not sign to agree with the findings because I could not see, and still cannot see from the photographs provided on the report evidence to show the alleged damages. I also did not sign the fair wear and tear sheet provided by GMAC in the voluntary termination pack. I did tell Manheim and Shoosmiths that I wanted to have an independent mechanic to look at the vehicle in respect to the alleged damages. Both requests have been ignored.



I also find your letter to be contradictory, on the one hand you are alleging that these damages are within your right to claim for but on the other hand you are dropping nearly half of them. Also you have written that you have removed the ‘left front alloy gouged’ yet that particular alleged damage is still on the damages list you are telling me I need to pay for.



I am not happy with the way GMAC dealt with the voluntary termination. It was made very difficult for me originally to terminate with me having to make numerous phones calls, send emails and letters and then GMAC insisting I sign a voluntary termination pack before I could terminate which I did not have to sign legally and therefore refused to sign. Then to instruct solicitors before having any contact with me yourselves to intimidate me into paying an alleged amount that you say is owed.



I will be taking my complaint to the financial ombudsmen as I do not feel that the charges you are demanding from me are fair or just.



Regards,

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello,

Few amendments below highlighted in red, not sure whether its all factually correct but just an indicator and do not feel like you have to put it in your letter.

When Manheim did the vehicle inspection I did not sign to agree with the findings because I could not see, and still cannot see from the photographs provided on the report evidence to show the alleged damages. The vehicle has been designed in such a way to give show various curvatures and not actual damage. If necessary, I am prepared to provide photographic evidence from another vehicle of the same make and model to prove that no damage has been sustained. I also did not sign the fair wear and tear sheet provided by GMAC in the voluntary termination pack. I did tell Manheim and Shoosmiths that I wanted to have an independent mechanic to look at the vehicle in respect to the alleged damages. Both requests have been ignored and as such, I consider GMAC's behaviour in this matter wholly inappropriate.

I also find your letters to be contradictory, on the one hand you are alleging that these damages are within your right to claim for but on the other you have suggested that you are willing to deduct almost 50% of those alleged damages. This makes me question whether GMAC's real motive is not in fact to recover the purported damages on the vehicle but to recover sums that it may have lost as a result of my right to terminate the agreement early. Also you have written that you have removed the ‘left front alloy gouged’ yet that particular alleged damage is still on the damages list you are telling me I need to pay for.

I understand that the mandatory 8 weeks to investigate my complaint will come to an end from next week. Given the lack of evidence and unsatisfactory responses by GMAC I shall be making a formal complaint to the Financail Ombudsman with a view to seeking compensation as a result.

[Markywdog]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello ROb - I've too have received a letter from Shoosmiths on behalf of GMAC for the return of my Vauxhall Astra. When they collected the car I didn't sign anything but the letter says :

We have been instructed by our Client GMAC UK plc to contact you further to your Voluntary Termination.
You have already received a detailed letter from our client regarding your liability on termination and you have also kindly made the vehicle available for inspection by Manheim Inspection Services (MIS). MIS have now sent us a copy of the inspection report which we attach for your reference.
We confirm that further to the return of your vehicle the following liabilities are now due :
Repairs Requires : £365.70
We look forward to receiving your remittance within next 14 calendar days, or alternatively your reasonable payment proposal

(then ended with contact details etc)

The letter contains photos literally 1in x 1in with description of the damage :
Front bumper scratched 26-100mm £70
Front door scratch up to 25mm £42
Rear alloy wheel scuffed £55
Rear bumper scratched up to 25mm £70
Rear alloy wheel scuffed £55
Carpet holed £42
Literature missing £31.70

My car is 30 months old and went back with 52,952 miles and full service history

Please advise how I should reply to this letter

Many thanks in advance

Mark

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello ROb - I've too have received a letter from Shoosmiths on behalf of GMAC for the return of my Vauxhall Astra. When they collected the car I didn't sign anything but the letter says :

We have been instructed by our Client GMAC UK plc to contact you further to your Voluntary Termination.
You have already received a detailed letter from our client regarding your liability on termination and you have also kindly made the vehicle available for inspection by Manheim Inspection Services (MIS). MIS have now sent us a copy of the inspection report which we attach for your reference.
We confirm that further to the return of your vehicle the following liabilities are now due :
Repairs Requires : £365.70
We look forward to receiving your remittance within next 14 calendar days, or alternatively your reasonable payment proposal

(then ended with contact details etc)

The letter contains photos literally 1in x 1in with description of the damage :
Front bumper scratched 26-100mm £70
Front door scratch up to 25mm £42
Rear alloy wheel scuffed £55
Rear bumper scratched up to 25mm £70
Rear alloy wheel scuffed £55
Carpet holed £42
Literature missing £31.70

My car is 30 months old and went back with 52,952 miles and full service history

Please advise how I should reply to this letter

Many thanks in advance

Mark

Hi mark,

You could try a similar reply that I used. We have now halved the 'bill' and have talent to the Financial ombusment. I think on page 1 of my thread there is a template for both GMAC and shoosmiths. You will probably find they halved your bill and then you will only be left with a small amount to pay. Then you can decide whether to just pay or take to the ombusment.

Lauren

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello,

Few amendments below highlighted in red, not sure whether its all factually correct but just an indicator and do not feel like you have to put it in your letter.

Hello Rob,

Update on our GMAC case. The advisor we have been assigned at the Ombudsment doesn't seem to 'get our point' about the inconvenience and the difficulty we had in terminating the agreement at all. He is only focussing on the fair wear and tear. He has also concluded that he feels they GMAC are within their right to charge us for all items outlined. He even said that some of the items GMAC have removed from our bill he would of kept on there. I'm not sure what to do from here. Whether to ask for a different advisor or just pay GMAC? I don't want to pay them obviously but I am struggling to deal with this, 2 kids, one being a newborn and working 6 days a week haha!

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello, well it doesn't sound like you are going to change his mind in the matter, but do not feel like you have to accept his decision. You can reject the decision and it will be up to GMAC as to whether or not they wish to initiate legal proceedings to recover the amount.

The Ombudsman does not have to follow the law and can depart from it when it feels it is fair and reasonable to do so, but the courts will follow what the law says and the CCA makes it just about plain spread across various provisions that the liability is limited to 50% of the total amount payable when you give notice to terminate under section 99 of the CCA.

The question is whether you want to stick to your guns and defend it, or cough up the money which in effect admits that you are liable for the damages. If you do wish to defend it then I will help you as much as I can, but I haven't seen anyone who has posted on this thread so far that has been taken to court.

I think, in all honesty it would take a case to go to court that proves the consumer's liability is capped for the Ombudsman to agree that finance companies cannot charge excess mileage.

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hello, well it doesn't sound like you are going to change his mind in the matter, but do not feel like you have to accept his decision. You can reject the decision and it will be up to GMAC as to whether or not they wish to initiate legal proceedings to recover the amount.

The Ombudsman does not have to follow the law and can depart from it when it feels it is fair and reasonable to do so, but the courts will follow what the law says and the CCA makes it just about plain spread across various provisions that the liability is limited to 50% of the total amount payable when you give notice to terminate under section 99 of the CCA.

The question is whether you want to stick to your guns and defend it, or cough up the money which in effect admits that you are liable for the damages. If you do wish to defend it then I will help you as much as I can, but I haven't seen anyone who has posted on this thread so far that has been taken to court.

I think, in all honesty it would take a case to go to court that proves the consumer's liability is capped for the Ombudsman to agree that finance companies cannot charge excess mileage.

Hello R0b,

It's been a while! Not a lot happened between September and Christmas apart from the Ombudsment not being very helpful in my opinion.

Anyway last week we received a letter from
shoosmiths again asking for the total of £978 even though GMAC had back in the summer dropped the total to £534. I have since written to them to ask for an accurate letter and they have replied with a letter asking for the £534 but stating that this amount will only stand if we pay in full within 30 days! Surely this is unreasonable!

As the Ombudsment concluded stating that he felt the sum of £534 was fair I don't know where else to go with this other than to either offer a lower figure which I can pay outright or argue for a payment plan to be arranged. Obviously in an ideal world I don't want to pay it but I have 2 very young children, have recently started a business from home and my husband works long hours so I just feel like this whole thing is really stressing me out to the point I can't sleep through worrying about it! I just want it to be over now!

I haven't yet agreed to pay any amount or even suggested that we will pay anything.

What would be a good way to word a letter about either a payment plan or a settling figure that I can afford in one lump? Do you think that might be the best course of action to try and get it lowered?

Thank you for all your help.

Lauren

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hi Lauren,

Your comments about the Ombudsman does not surprise me, but you do not have to accept the Ombudsman's decision, it is not legally binding unless you agree to accept it.

This dispute has been ongoing now for almost a year and there is still no resolution, still the threats coming from GMAC and Shoosmiths but doesn't appear to be going anywhere!

My personal view is that this is all smoke, and I would be very surprised if it went any further. If GMAC really thought they were entitled to the dmaages claimed, they would have issued a claim against you by now.

I appreciate you are getting stressed about this and ultimately it is your decisions, but if it were me, I wouldn't be paying them a penny if I thought there was no damage or the sums claimed are unreasonable. So if you want to pay up then its a case of haggling, but if you can't come to an agreement, they may very well issue proceedings against you knowing they have the upper hand and will try to put more pressure on you to accept paying the full amount. A repayment plan would be suitable but you would have to offer a reasonable monthly payent for them to consider, or as above, they may issue proceedings for the full amount knowing you want to settle.

If you want to settle, you should look at the damages and then write to them explaining that you do not disagree with their findings, and explain the reasons why and then offer a lower sum by instalments in full and final settlement.

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hi Lauren,

Your comments about the Ombudsman does not surprise me, but you do not have to accept the Ombudsman's decision, it is not legally binding unless you agree to accept it.

This dispute has been ongoing now for almost a year and there is still no resolution, still the threats coming from GMAC and Shoosmiths but doesn't appear to be going anywhere!

My personal view is that this is all smoke, and I would be very surprised if it went any further. If GMAC really thought they were entitled to the dmaages claimed, they would have issued a claim against you by now.

I appreciate you are getting stressed about this and ultimately it is your decisions, but if it were me, I wouldn't be paying them a penny if I thought there was no damage or the sums claimed are unreasonable. So if you want to pay up then its a case of haggling, but if you can't come to an agreement, they may very well issue proceedings against you knowing they have the upper hand and will try to put more pressure on you to accept paying the full amount. A repayment plan would be suitable but you would have to offer a reasonable monthly payent for them to consider, or as above, they may issue proceedings for the full amount knowing you want to settle.

If you want to settle, you should look at the damages and then write to them explaining that you do not disagree with their findings, and explain the reasons why and then offer a lower sum by instalments in full and final settlement.

Hello,

So if we make any effort/suggestion of paying we are therefore saying we are liable for the damages and therefore they can start proceedings to get the money and potentially take us to court? Am I correct in thinking that?

What do you think my next letter should be if I decide to try and face this off and not pay?

It is all scare tactics as shoosmiths send letters constantly! I haven't heard from GMAC for a very long time. The Ombudsment finding GMAC to be fair - would this stand up in court that we are liable?

Also with the Ombudsment although we didn't reply to state that we accept his final conclusions we also didn't write to tell him we disagreed? Does that mean we've automatically accepted?

Lauren

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

What I am saying is, if you want to try and come to a settlement that is fine, but if you do that then they it is possible that they may take that as a weakened position by you and then initiate proceedings in an attempt to try and extort the full amount of damages they are seeking. It's not guaranteed but always have to bear that in mind.

If you didn't reply to the Ombudsman it is considered that you did not accept their decision.

If you want to fight it, then its a case of ignoring them or if they really are contacting you on a regular basis then you can write to them claiming harassment on the basis that the dispute is close to 12 months and they've still not issued proceedings despite the many number of threats they may have made.

If you don't want to accept their offer and wish to fight it all the way, then all you need to do is re-iterate what you have repeated on a number of occasions, that is that the car was returned in a reasonable conditon, the guidelines are not appropriate in relation to consumer contracts and the damages they are seek appear to be a case of betterment.

[NickNoo]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hi Guys,

I've been watching this thread for a while as myself have had issues with GMAC/Shoosmiths.

Short version is GMAC stating £780 owed after Mannheim inspection and then passing to Shoosmiths to recover. I've point blank refused to pay as in my opinion the card went back in a reasonable condition.

I've spoken to Shoosmiths this afternoon and they have passed it back to GMAC so I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas what will likely happen next?

I would hold out but the complication is that the agreement was in my Mother's name so she is liable and when GMAC sent out the VT paperwork she signed it and sent it back so in effect agreeing to their terms and conditions, which seem to be different from what the law states.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Nick

[Laurenelias]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hi Guys,

I've been watching this thread for a while as myself have had issues with GMAC/Shoosmiths.

Short version is GMAC stating £780 owed after Mannheim inspection and then passing to Shoosmiths to recover. I've point blank refused to pay as in my opinion the card went back in a reasonable condition.

I've spoken to Shoosmiths this afternoon and they have passed it back to GMAC so I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas what will likely happen next?

I would hold out but the complication is that the agreement was in my Mother's name so she is liable and when GMAC sent out the VT paperwork she signed it and sent it back so in effect agreeing to their terms and conditions, which seem to be different from what the law states.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Please keep us up to date with what happens. We didn't sign the termination pack or the inspection paperwork from Manheim. I'm more worried about being taken to court and the stress of receiving letters constantly.

Why have shoosmiths passed it back to GMAC? I would of thought shoosmiths would start 'legal proceedings' to recover the money considering they are solicitors apparently?! Or are they waiting to hear what GMAC would like to do next.

At work I use debt collection agencies to recover money but never take it further than a solicitors letter so I wonder whether this will be the same. But the debt in recovering is usually only a couple of hundred at most although the debt I am recovering I would win back in court for sure but we still don't bother as it's not worth the hassle and court fees

[NickNoo]

Re: Voluntary termination - fair wear & tear

Hi Nick,

Please keep us up to date with what happens. We didn't sign the termination pack or the inspection paperwork from Manheim. I'm more worried about being taken to court and the stress of receiving letters constantly.

Why have shoosmiths passed it back to GMAC? I would of thought shoosmiths would start 'legal proceedings' to recover the money considering they are solicitors apparently?! Or are they waiting to hear what GMAC would like to do next.

At work I use debt collection agencies to recover money but never take it further than a solicitors letter so I wonder whether this will be the same. But the debt in recovering is usually only a couple of hundred at most although the debt I am recovering I would win back in court for sure but we still don't bother as it's not worth the hassle and court fees

Hi

Yes of course i will keep you informed of what happens next.

I'm not sure why they have passed it back but i contacted GMAC this afternoon to ascertain whether they would look at a settlement and all they have replied with is that i owe the full amount.

Unfortunately my Mother signed and returned the paperwork without letting me know as she thought it would speed the process up. On the back of this though i'm afraid i probably dont have the leeway you have as in effect we have agreed to their ridiculous terms set out in the documentation which go far further with regards to the condition of the vehicle being returned. Rather than "reasonable condition" it pretty much states that the car must be returned in good condition.

My main gripe is the cost of the repairs, not the fact they needed doing. I estimate that each defect they have found is being charged at up to 4/5 times what it could be fixed for so they are just trying to recoup as much as possible rather than it being a true reflection of the condition of the car.

Nick