Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION 172

[astar]

Hi All
I hope i have posted this correctly as new to the forum.
Help & advise would be appreciated.

I have been approached by a friend who is in a right mess.
(She is illiterate, dyslexia & has speech problems.)
Details as follows :-

30 August 2014.
Heather was shopping in B&Q with her daughter & son,after shopping, she got in her car with factory fitted reversing signals and reversed out of her parking spot,as she was about to pull away a woman stopped her & advised that she had reversed into a car.
Her daughter indicated that she did not know what she was talking about.
They all got out of the car & inspected both vehicles no damage to either vehicle.
The woman became obstructive & said she would report it to the police.
Heather indicated that their was no damage to either vehicle,no one was hurt & clearly the woman was mistaken.
Heather & family drove away.

19th September 2014.
Received a letter from Greater Manchester Police, road traffic collision investigation unit,with a requirement to provide name & address of driver section 172, as she was being charged with driving without due care & attention, failing to stop & failing to report a collision.

22nd September 2014
Letter sent to GMP RTC, by her friend signed by heather, indicating that she did not consent to provide her details,as she had done nothing wrong.
In the letter she indicated that she was the driver & in mitigation told the above facts,indicating that the alleged offence occurred on private property namely B&Q car park & no damage occured & no one was hurt.
she felt that failure to report a collision was not valid.
she felt it was a civil matter & if the third party felt that they had a claim that this matter should be dealt with via his/her insurance company.

24th September 2014 (date of letter, received 1st October 2014)
Reply to letter from GMP RTC now indicatinGG that she should ring up to make an appointment to attend the police station to speak about the case.

01st October/2014
Heather rang to make an appointment, police officer said did not want heather to attend police station & was not interested in hearing her statement of events just wanted her consent to providing her details under section 172.
She indicated again that she had not done anything wrong & referred to he letter of mitigation.
He then threatened with court action & became very annoyed.

01st October 2014 (dated letter)
Letter from GMP stating not accepting invitation to see police officer in police station !!!.
Attaching another section 172 stating must be completed as now an accident has occured & allocating a accident number.

04th October 2014
Heather sent a letter typed,by her friend signed by heather, direct to police officer (recorded delivery),stating that the foundation evidence for his claim is missing & that there is no proof of claim or proof of authority.
If the officer did not furnish her with the foundation evidence within 20working days & still persue her for this matter,that she would summons it accordingly.

22nd October 2014
Received a Salford Magistrates court summons to appear in court on 5/12/2014 at 13.15.
Charged with failure to give information to the identification of the driver of a vehicle.


Sorry for the long diatribe any help or advise would be greatly welcome as heather is really upset,as at present it looks like she will receive 6 points on her license & a fine up to £1000.
(not replied to court as yet with a plea.)

[Kati]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Hi Astar ... Welcome to LB
I'm sure you will get lots of help and advice from some of the knowledgeable Beagles!

Kati x

[wales01man]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Should get some legal advice before Court if not on the day there should be a Duty Solicitor available

[vanman]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Hi All
I hope i have posted this correctly as new to the forum.
Help & advise would be appreciated.

I have been approached by a friend who is in a right mess.
(She is illiterate, dyslexia & has speech problems.)
Details as follows :-

30 August 2014.
Heather was shopping in B&Q with her daughter & son,after shopping, she got in her car with factory fitted reversing signals and reversed out of her parking spot,as she was about to pull away a woman stopped her & advised that she had reversed into a car.
Her daughter indicated that she did not know what she was talking about.
They all got out of the car & inspected both vehicles no damage to either vehicle.
The woman became obstructive & said she would report it to the police.
Heather indicated that their was no damage to either vehicle,no one was hurt & clearly the woman was mistaken.
Heather & family drove away.

19th September 2014.
Received a letter from Greater Manchester Police, road traffic collision investigation unit,with a requirement to provide name & address of driver section 172, as she was being charged with driving without due care & attention, failing to stop & failing to report a collision.

dont know if it to late for this
but the NIP was not in the 14days

The most common requirement is upon receipt of a Notice of Intended Prosecution. Details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the Police pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The registered keeper of a vehicle will receive a Notice of Intended Prosecution when the driver was not formally warned of potential prosecution at the time of the allegation. Typically, this will be for any offence supported by photographic evidence, such as speed camera/traffic signal contraventions.

link: What are the rules relating to a Notice of Intended Prosecution?

For certain offences, the process can be started by serving a Notice of Intended Prosecution Pursuant to Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act. Typically, these offences are speeding, failing to comply with traffic signals etc. The obligation is upon the prosecution to have issued and despatched the Notice in order that it arrives with the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the offence.

Service can be by first class post, by hand or in some circumstances, by recorded delivery. The method of delivery is at the discretion of the prosecution who only have to show that they have followed the correct procedure.

The Notice must be signed (although this can be typed) on behalf of the Chief Constable, typically it will simply name an authorised officer, dated and contain sufficient information for the offence to be identified.





link: What is the 14 day rule?

The 14 day rule relates only to the period of time in which the Police/Process Unit must serve the original Notice. The Police do not have to prove that the Notice reached its intended recipient within 14 days, merely that they believe that it arrived, but there may be a defence available if the intended recipient can convince a Court that the notice did not arrive in time or at all. In many cases, the registered keeper will be a lease company not the actual driver, with the result that even if the driver is unaware of the incident, service of the Notice is good if it was sent to arrive at the registered keeper's last known address within 14 days of the offence.


link: The Notice of Intended Prosecution was issued out of time, what do I do now?

If you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and the ISSUE date on the Notice of Intended Prosecution is more than 14 days after the offence, then you can reject it. This only applies if it is dated more than 14 days after the alleged offence. If the NIP has been issued too late, then you should return it to the Process Office stating that you reject it because it is time barred. Bear in mind that if you are not the registered keeper, the NIP may have originally been issued within time and sent to the keeper.

[des8]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

If you receive a NIP you must respond to it within the time limit (28 days) even if it was received after the 14 day time limit for issuance.
Failure to provide the drivers details leads to prosecution as your friend is discovering. This is clearly stated on the form.
When giving the drivers details you should state that the case will be defended as the NIP was issued out of time.

Also the 14 day limit is not an absolute, eg if the police were unable to ascertain the name and address of the accused within the time limit.

I think she will have to explain at court about her problems, eat humble pie and apologise for not completing the NIP properly and hope magistrate is lenient.
The actual "collision" and careless driving is a separate charge to be defended.

[vanman]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

The actual "collision" and careless driving is a separate charge to be defended.

as far as the OP has said the only charge is

22nd October 2014
Received a Salford Magistrates court summons to appear in court on 5/12/2014 at 13.15.
Charged with failure to give information to the identification of the driver of a vehicle.

[des8]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

True, I should have made it clearer that the alleged careless driving will be a separate charge that if made will need to be defended separately
In post 1 it stated " as she was being charged with driving without due care & attention, failing to stop & failing to report a collision" and I rashly assumed this had been made.:tinysmile_cry_t:

You do say that in the letter 22/09 she indicated she was the driver.
This might actually satisfy the requirement of the section 172 order.
Perhaps as Wales indicated she should seek legal advice.

[vanman]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

You do say that in the letter 22/09 she indicated she was the driver.
This might actually satisfy the requirement of the section 172 order.
Perhaps as Wales indicated she should seek legal advice.

good point she certainly did

[astar]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Thanks for all your quick replies.
I believe Heather has taken some legal advise.
They told her due to the 14 day rule she can not be convicted of the driving without due care & attention, failing to stop & failing to report a collision",so they have gone for the other option of failing to provide driver details.
Legal advise is a 70/30 chance.
They offered to send a letter to the court, costing £300 !!!.

Heather is a a proud person although very embarrassed about her not being able to read & relies on other people to read & give advise.

My thoughts on this & would like your feedback if possible

Send a not guilty plea to the court.

As the prosecution is not aware of her not being able to read & write.
Should this be mentioned in the reply to the court ?,or should it be saved as a trump card for the court hearing date ?.(with a letter from her current tutor stating her disability.)

The police have acknowledged that they had received her original letter stating she was the driver.
Also an acknowledgement from the police stated in their reply,that they were aware she was driving the car in that area.

Seems a little harsh to convict just for not filling a form in, that she was not capable of & was advised not to, as not guilty of any offence & wanted to express that in mitigation inwhich it has been clearly ignored.

[wales01man]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

A defence of being illiterate might not work as she can drive has a licence so is deemed intelligent enough to plead what was the £300 letter going to say to get her off?
As this is I expect a minor offence and she could have made a simple mistake the Magistrate might be lenient hopefully trying to think of to many excuses may not please the Court.
From our local paper some weeks ago someone was convicted by the Magistrates of this offence and fined heavily its really pot luck as to what the magistrate feels like .

Plead mitigation due to her problems and Good luck

[des8]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Heather should not conceal the fact of her illiteracy, with the intention of producing a trump card.
It will more likly be considered as obstructive

Assuming Heather is not familiar with court procedures, she should divest her mind of all TV court room dramas!
I think she should be taking professional advice about preparing and presenting her defence in court.
Just not knowing the procedures, and not understanding the language can cause problems if she gets an unsympathetic magistrate
Try citizen's Advice for starters.
Will she have some one to support her in court if she cannot use a solicitor?
See here about litigants in Person, you might find useful to skim through, so you can explain it to Heather. It indicates how the courts should deal with LiPs.
It's rather long, but not all of it applies to every case http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-conte..._finalised_pdf

[leclerc]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

I think you guys have all said something that is relevant. She is being charged for failure to provide the details of the driver, yet, she wrote on 22nd September stating she was the driver and she received a reply. Surely a copy of that letter and a response which clearly responds to the said letter means that she has complied with this?

[astar]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Heather should not conceal the fact of her illiteracy, with the intention of producing a trump card.
It will more likly be considered as obstructive

Assuming Heather is not familiar with court procedures, she should divest her mind of all TV court room dramas!
I think she should be taking professional advice about preparing and presenting her defence in court.
Just not knowing the procedures, and not understanding the language can cause problems if she gets an unsympathetic magistrate
Try citizen's Advice for starters.
Will she have some one to support her in court if she cannot use a solicitor?
See here about litigants in Person, you might find useful to skim through, so you can explain it to Heather. It indicates how the courts should deal with LiPs.
It's rather long, but not all of it applies to every case www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/judicial-college/ETBB_LiP+_finalised_pdf

Thanks for your reply unfortunatly the link you quoted says :
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/judicial-college/ETBB_LiP+_finalised_pdf on this server.

[astar]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

I think you guys have all said something that is relevant. She is being charged for failure to provide the details of the driver, yet, she wrote on 22nd September stating she was the driver and she received a reply. Surely a copy of that letter and a response which clearly responds to the said letter means that she has complied with this?

I agree also,& feel that not filling the form in is a little harsh.

when does an ACT become law ?, ok, that is another debate.

innocent until proven guilty,if you fill in the form & sign it then that gives the police the authority to use that information as they see fit.
In hindsight she should of got someone to fill the form & clearly marked it 'without prejudice'.

[astar]

Re: Failure to stop now charged with failure to produce information of driver SECTION

Heather should not conceal the fact of her illiteracy, with the intention of producing a trump card.
It will more likly be considered as obstructive

Assuming Heather is not familiar with court procedures, she should divest her mind of all TV court room dramas!
I think she should be taking professional advice about preparing and presenting her defence in court.
Just not knowing the procedures, and not understanding the language can cause problems if she gets an unsympathetic magistrate
Try citizen's Advice for starters.
Will she have some one to support her in court if she cannot use a solicitor?
See here about litigants in Person, you might find useful to skim through, so you can explain it to Heather. It indicates how the courts should deal with LiPs.
It's rather long, but not all of it applies to every case www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/judicial-college/ETBB_LiP+_finalised_pdf

To reply to your questions she cannot afford legal representation, especially at prices quoted £700 - £900.
£300 for a letter to the prosecution trying to cut a deal with them,before going to court.
I don't mind supporting her physically not financially on this although she is aware it is her that will have to stand in court.
citizen's advice is a good tip, thanks.