CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

[bizzybob]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

A PCN from a LA is a council Penalty Charge Notice, which still has an appeal process, whereas a Parking Charge Notice is an alleged infringement of an implied contract that a Private Parking Contractor like Parking Eye avows you have entered by driving into a car park where the owner lets them "control" parking.

Wales, a courier will often get a CCTV ticket which is challengeable as they were delivering, therefore stopped lawfully unless there was also a Loading Restriction. Uncle joes Fiesta can be ticketed, whereas Ben's Sprinter is Ok as he is delivering to the shop he is outside. Europcar denies the courier the right to challenge by their contract term, where often the ticket should and will be quoshed on appeal.

[wales01man]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

BB I accept that some tickets are appealable I asked why has it taken the OP 3 years to question the Contract terms and what replies have they received from Europcar as court cases can incur high costs Europcar car may contest with an expensive legal team whose costs may be claimed should the win
A simple CCJ application for refunds may fail where does the OP go to get what they want. I always want to see an Underdog OP win against a big company its just a difficult way forward.

[bizzybob]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

BB I accept that some tickets are appealable I asked why has it taken the OP 3 years to question the Contract terms and what replies have they received from Europcar as court cases can incur high costs Europcar car may contest with an expensive legal team whose costs may be claimed should the win
A simple CCJ application for refunds may fail where does the OP go to get what they want. I always want to see an Underdog OP win against a big company its just a difficult way forward.

That is a concern Wales, as OP is not the only "victim" there must be other couriers and people with vehicles on long term hire similarly affected. many of the big firms like Yodel, and others arrange an in house deal for their subbies, as in a liveried van at so much a week, so Op will not be alone with this.

I agree 3 years is a long time unless the number of PCN can be used as evidence. OP should seek solid independent legal advice from a lawyer well versed in Contract Law.

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Since Europcar never transfers PCN liability to the hirer to allow him/her to make representations (over the last 3 years I have accumulated so many of those £101 charges that I can prove this point without a shadow of doubt) it is either a case of an incorrect hire agreement (that not meets the requirements in schedule 2 of the road traffic (owner liability) regulations 2000) or Europcar is in breach of its own contract.

Thank you Wombats. Is my understanding of the case essence correct? (My previous post).

I can't comment on the legislation as I've not read it recently sorry. In what way do you think it may be in breach of its own contract.

I am assuming the cited contractual term (was it 3.1.7?????) has a prefix along the lines of 'The hirer agrees to pay: ' as in itself it does not make sense. Nitpicky, but contracts need nitpicking if being challenged.

I will try to find time to read the legislation today and see if I can find anything else about these, but can't promise as I may have to shoot off on a lengthy journey.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

As a layman I would ask if you have so many of these charges over 3 years why have you not taken this action before?
And why do you get so many parking fines or notices the average person ay het 1 in a lifetime after the first most would check the signs?
What has been Europcars replies to your complaints? I am no trying to start an argument but taking on a big company is not going to be easy.

There are many reasons but I'll give you just a couple of obvious ones. First, when you go on the road at around 6 in the morning and come back at around 9 in evening having done 50-60 drops every day 5-6 days a week you are dead tired and you don't have time for anything except for a bit of a rest. Second, you are not British by birth and don't have many pals to ask around. On the top of it you don't have any knowledge in law yourself and when you try to consult Citizens Advice Bureau you get nothing except a lawyers list in the area.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

I can't comment on the legislation as I've not read it recently sorry In what way do you think it may be in breach of its own contract.

I am assuming the cited contractual term (was it 3.1.7?????) has a prefix along the lines of 'The hirer agrees to pay: ' as in itself it does not make sense. Nitpicky, but contracts need nitpicking if being challenged.

I will try to find time to read the legislation today and see if I can find anything else about these, but can't promise as I may have to shoot off on a lengthy journey.

It reads as follows:

By signing the Rental Agreement overleaf (RA) or taking a vehicle from us you are entering Into a legal contract with us & confirming that you accept these terms &conditions.

1. Definitions
**********************
2. Rental period
**********************
3. Charges

3.1 Whether you are the driver or not, except where the charges are covered by our third party motor Insurance or our collision damage waiver, risk reduction, theft waiver or peace of mind products you agree to be responsible for & will pay the following to us:

3.1.1 ******
3.1.2******
*************
3.1.7******

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Here's the legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/2/made

Could you post up a copy of your agreement with ALL personal details and markers removed so we can see whether or not we consider it compliant or not please?

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

That is a concern Wales, as OP is not the only "victim" there must be other couriers and people with vehicles on long term hire similarly affected. many of the big firms like Yodel, and others arrange an in house deal for their subbies, as in a liveried van at so much a week, so Op will not be alone with this.

I agree 3 years is a long time unless the number of PCN can be used as evidence. OP should seek solid independent legal advice from a lawyer well versed in Contract Law.

Thank you bizzybob. Would you recommend any of such lawyers? If not what is the way to find a" well versed in Contract Law" lawyer?

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Here's the legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/2/made

Could you post up a copy of your agreement with ALL personal details and markers removed so we can see whether or not we consider it compliant or not please?

Please see in the attached.

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Thanks.

Could you ppossibly check, as it is not clear enough on the copies, that ALL the following are on the form:

Full Name.

Date of birth.

Permanent Address.

Address at time of hiring (if different from 3 above and stay is likely to be more than two months from date of hiring).

Details of driving licence:

(a)country where issued (if not UK),

(b)serial number or driver’s number,

(c)date of expiry (which should be no later than date specified in B7 below).


Many thanks.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Thanks.

Could you ppossibly check, as it is not clear enough on the copies, that ALL the following are on the form:

Full Name. YES

Date of birth. NO

Permanent Address. YES (without mentioning that it is permanent)

Address at time of hiring (if different from 3 above and stay is likely to be more than two months from date of hiring). NO

Details of driving licence: NONE (I have a UK driving licence).


Many thanks.

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

OK - they got 2 out of the 5 required under the legislation for Part A.

Let's try Part B (put N/A if it isn't relevant, I suspect looking at it quite a lot won't be):

Registration mark of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.

Make and model of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.

Registration mark of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.

Make and model of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.

Time and date of any change of vehicle.

Time and date of commencement of original hiring period.

Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period.

Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period.

Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period.

Actual time and date of return of vehicle (or when vehicle returned out of hours time and date on which vehicle-hire firm next opened for business).

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

OK - they got 2 out of the 5 required under the legislation for Part A.

Let's try Part B (put N/A if it isn't relevant, I suspect looking at it quite a lot won't be):

Registration mark of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement. YES

Make and model of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement. YES

Registration mark of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.N/A

Make and model of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.N/A

Time and date of any change of vehicle.N/A

Time and date of commencement of original hiring period.YES

Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period.YES

Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period.NO (and I do extensions )

Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period. NO

Actual time and date of return of vehicle (or when vehicle returned out of hours time and date on which vehicle-hire firm next opened for business).This is shown on the final invoice but not on the Agreement

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Since Europcar never transfers PCN liability to the hirer to allow him/her to make representations (over the last 3 years I have accumulated so many of those £101 charges that I can prove this point without a shadow of doubt) it is either a case of an incorrect hire agreement (that not meets the requirements in schedule 2 of the road traffic (owner liability) regulations 2000) or Europcar is in breach of its own contract.

Given your responses to the above, and the legislation as linked earlier on, we've gone through every element of Schedule 2 and they do not (in my very amateur opinion) appear to have complied with what is, afterall, a pretty simple list of requisite terms.

The next question is on what basis you claim Europcar are in breach of its own contract?

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Given your responses to the above, and the legislation as linked earlier on, we've gone through every element of Schedule 2 and they do not (in my very amateur opinion) appear to have complied with what is, afterall, a pretty simple list of requisite terms.

The next question is on what basis you claim Europcar are in breach of its own contract?

What I meant was that the correctly written contract (as I understand it) should allow for the transfer of libility from the keeper to the hirer and since Europcar never transfers PCN liability to allow for representations it is either because their contract doesn't allow them to, or, if it does, then Europcar does not play by its own rules.