Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

[sidstation]

Hi there.

This is my first time on this forum and post so forgive me if this information is elsewhere on the forum. Anyway, here's my story:

Last year my partner picked up a Derbyshire County Council driving ticket in my car that we contested and had rejected. We stupidly ignored it after that (and were abroad working for a month!) until a bailiff company, Equita, picked up the case late last year and sent one threatening letter. They were very difficult to deal with and the aggressive bailiff tried to charge me £420 over the phone for an £82 fine. When I asked for a breakdown of the charges I didn't hear anything back, apart from a letter in December informing me that due to season of goodwill no bailiffs would call around my house.

Anyway, on the 30th of January I received a letter from Marstons telling me that I now owe them £282. I spoke with the bailiff, who was actually not too bad, and asked him for a written breakdown of these fees and the dates they were incurred. He informed me that it was against company policy to do so.

I then emailed Marstons a formal request for a written breakdown of the fees, dates and times incurred and, indeed, authorisation that they (and the bailiff) are acting on behalf of Derbyshire CC - information I think I'm right in understanding I'm statutorily entitled to under The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations. They're yet to respond.

Meanwhile the bailiff has phoned me to tell me the fees, which are as follows (the amounts are his words):

21st December - £11.20 - for a letter that I honestly did not receive.


30th of January - A letter hand delivered informing me that the bailiff had called and had obtained an Attendance to Remove - approx £40.00 incl vat (the bailiff wasn't sure about this amount)


On the same day, the 30th - fees for the ATR itself and Marston's fees (again the bailiff wasn't really clear about this) - £144.00 incl vat - an amount agreed between Derbyshire CC and Marstons, according to the Bailiff.

So, including the £82.00 original fine, the total now owed is £282.72 (the amounts don't add up I know).

My questions concerning this are:

- Does this sum seem reasonable given the circumstances?
- Am I right in thinking that bailiffs are not allowed to charge fees above the original fine? (Is it 28% of the fine + letter costs?)
- If he is trying to defraud me, what are my options for dealing with it?

I'm not trying to get out of paying anything. It's just that I don't know this company and they're trying to get a fair old sum of money from me, all on basis of one letter. The bailiff's starting to get a bit more pushy now and I want him off my back - should I just pay or wait until Marstons respond?

Thank you very much in advance for any response that might help.

[labman]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

Hi there.

This is my first time on this forum and post so forgive me if this information is elsewhere on the forum. Anyway, here's my story:

Last year my partner picked up a Derbyshire County Council driving ticket in my car that we contested and had rejected. We stupidly ignored it after that (and were abroad working for a month!) until a bailiff company, Equita, picked up the case late last year and sent one threatening letter. They were very difficult to deal with and the aggressive bailiff tried to charge me £420 over the phone for an £82 fine. When I asked for a breakdown of the charges I didn't hear anything back, apart from a letter in December informing me that due to season of goodwill no bailiffs would call around my house.

Anyway, on the 30th of January I received a letter from Marston's telling me that I now owe them £282. I spoke with the bailiff, who was actually not too bad, and asked him for a written breakdown of these fees and the dates they were incurred. He informed me that it was against company policy to do so. It is your legal right to ask, and their legal right to supply a detailed breakdown of fees. There is a letter here to request them:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters LETTER 1

I then emailed formally requesting that Marstons to send me written breakdown of the fees, dates and times incurred and, indeed, authorisation that they (and the bailiff) are acting on behalf of Derbyshire CC - information I think I'm right in understanding I'm statutorily entitled to under The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations. They're yet to respond. Complain and write to the Head of Revenues at DCC asking him for a breakdown of fees, stating his appointed enforcement agents are refusing to supply one, and they are vicariously liable for the conduct and charging of their enforcement agents.

Meanwhile the bailiff has phoned me to tell me the fees, which are as follows (the amounts are his words):

21st December - £11.20 - for a letter that I honestly did not receive. Valid


30th of January - A letter hand delivered informing me that the bailiff had called and had obtained an Attendance to Remove - approx £40.00 incl vat (the bailiff wasn't sure about this amount) Approximate fees are useless to you.


On the same day, the 30th - fees for the ATR itself and Marston's fees (again the bailiff wasn't really clear about this) - £144.00 incl vat - an amount agreed between Derbyshire CC and Marstons, according to the Bailiff. They are not allowed to charge twice for the same thing in the same day.

These are the fees affecting your fine:
Fees
Sending a letter = £11.20 (Can only be charged once)

Sum up to £200 = 28% (Minimum fee of £28.00)

Any sum over £200 = 5.5%

Bailiffs can charge fees for a maximum of three visits. It is illegal to charge multiple fees for recovering more than one ticket in one visit.

It seems a point for debate when VAT should be added, and if it should be added to fees and the fine, or just fees; also whether VAT is added at each stage of the fees, or the total fees + VAT.


So, including the £82.00 original fine, the total now owed is £282.72 (notwithstanding his poor maths).



My questions concerning this are:

- Does this sum seem reasonable given the circumstances? No
- Am I right in thinking that bailiffs are not allowed to charge fees above the original fine? (Is it 28% of the fine + letter costs?) If you mean what I think you do, your thinking is not correct. The fees can total more than the origianl fine if legitimately charged.
- If he is trying to defraud me, what are my options for dealing with it? Get the fees first, post them up when you receive them, and then we'll take it from there.

I'm not trying to get out of paying anything. It's just that I don't know this company and they're trying to get a fair old sum of money from me, all on basis of one letter. The bailiff's starting to get a bit more pushy now and I want him off my back - should I just pay or wait until Marstons respond? NEVER pay a bailiff until you know everything is right. They lie and cheat horrifically.

Thank you very much in advance for any response that might help.

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

It would appear that bailiff companies aren't exactly compliant with VAT regulations. Question any VAT they have added and, in particular, watch out for VAT being charged on a figure which has already been subject to VAT. If in any doubt, contact HMRC VAT section.

[bizzybob]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

Perhaps a complaint to HMRC thast marstons are fiddling VAT....

[labman]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

It would appear that bailiff companies aren't exactly compliant with VAT regulations. Question any VAT they have added and, in particular, watch out for VAT being charged on a figure which has already been subject to VAT. If in any doubt, contact HMRC VAT section.

That is a really useful comment for me. Can someone confirm for definite then (preferably with a link to legislation as I'm a fussy bugger lol) that VAT should only be added once ALL fees have been added up? Also, can someone clarify whether it is, or is not legitimate to include the original fine in these calculations, thus adding VAT to the fine as well?

Any links to legislation, please just the relevant bit of an act, not an entire act to wade through!

I know what I believe to be the answers, but it would be good to have a 'site consensus' on this, ideally backed by legislation.

Thanks.

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

I'm a fussy bugger

We know that, but it's not a bad thing being fussy.

VAT should only be added once ALL fees have been added up?

This is not happening, apparently.

not legitimate to include the original fine in these calculations, thus adding VAT to the fine as well?

Totally verbotten. Fines are not subject to VAT.

Any links to legislation, please just the relevant bit of an act, not an entire act to wade through!

I know what I believe to be the answers, but it would be good to have a 'site consensus' on this, ideally backed by legislation.

Best people to ask are HMRC VAT Section. They should be able to direct to the exact legislation. Very helpful people.

@@@@

[gravytrain]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vbnbmanual/VBNB41720.htm

It would seem that the VAT requirements differ dependent on which particular bailiff is being used in the case of magistrates court bailiffs

Magistrates’ Court judgments

Court warrants/fines
Magistrates Courts hear many cases of minor misdemeanours and often impose fines as a result. Unlike County Court bailiffs, Magistrates Court bailiffs are not employees of the court system. They are separate people for VAT purposes. Therefore services provided by Magistrates Court bailiffs to enforce the Court fines are liable to VAT.
These services are supplies to the Courts and the tax on them is recoverable under section 41(3) of the VAT Act 1994 by the Ministry of Justice, under whose control the Courts fall.

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vbnbmanual/VBNB41720.htm

It would seem that the VAT requirements differ dependent on which particular bailiff is being used in the case of magistrates court bailiffs

Magistrates’ Court judgments

Court warrants/fines
Magistrates Courts hear many cases of minor misdemeanours and often impose fines as a result. Unlike County Court bailiffs, Magistrates Court bailiffs are not employees of the court system. They are separate people for VAT purposes. Therefore services provided by Magistrates Court bailiffs to enforce the Court fines are liable to VAT.
These services are supplies to the Courts and the tax on them is recoverable under section 41(3) of the VAT Act 1994 by the Ministry of Justice, under whose control the Courts fall.

That would apply to charges raised by the bailiff for services provided and where allowed by statute or statutory instrument. Fines are exempt from VAT.

[gravytrain]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

I believe they are, the legislation staes how VAT is applied to charges

[bizzybob]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

In which case when an OP posts up a breakdown from bailiffs, in a magistrates fine enforcement, we must calculate the correct VAT amounft as pound to a penny, they have added fees to the fine and added VAT to the grand total, then they can pocket the VAT element unlawfully applied to the fine, as in Fine £100 fees £200 Total £300 + 20% VAT Bailiff demands,and bullies debtor for £360.

Actual charge should be Fine £100 Fees £200 + 20% VAT = £240 + £100 Fine £340. bailiff pockets £20 in illicit beer tokens.

Report the so and sos. to HMRC, if enough debtors do, the taxman may take an unhealthy interest in bailiffs for tax irregularities.

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

If HMRC swooped on all the bailiff companies in the UK, I doubt very much if many of them would survive having their VAT records scrutinised in microscopic detail. If you think VAT inspectors are barstewards, the Corporate Investigation Team are really scary. They will have already carried out a covert investigation before they pay you a visit, Try pulling the wool over their eyes. Not recommended, definitely not recommended.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

In which case when an OP posts up a breakdown from bailiffs, in a magistrates fine enforcement, we must calculate the correct VAT amounft as pound to a penny, they have added fees to the fine and added VAT to the grand total, then they can pocket the VAT element unlawfully applied to the fine, as in Fine £100 fees £200 Total £300 + 20% VAT Bailiff demands,and bullies debtor for £360.

Actual charge should be Fine £100 Fees £200 + 20% VAT = £240 + £100 Fine £340. bailiff pockets £20 in illicit beer tokens.

Report the so and sos. to HMRC, if enough debtors do, the taxman may take an unhealthy interest in bailiffs for tax irregularities.

Isn't that the usual way of dealing with gangsters?

Alphonse Capone was gaoled for tax fraud.

[gravytrain]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

From the marstons fee page, this sounds like the VAT is being calculated on the total sum ? http://www.marstongroup.co.uk/customer-contact-centre/our-fees.html

If the debtor fails to contact the enforcement agent, the agent will call again until he/she is able to execute the warrant/collect the outstanding debt and charges/seize goods/confirm that it is not possible to recover the debt. (The fees and charges for each Attendance and any action taken are added to the letter fee and to the original debt. VAT is calculated on the total charges incurred.)

[labman]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

Isn't that the usual way of dealing with gangsters?

Alphonse Capone was gaoled for tax fraud.

The other well known gangster only escaped by a whisker after £336000 was found stashed in a suitcase - I refer of course to Ken Dodd!

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marstons Parking fine case.... please help!

From the marstons fee page, this sounds like the VAT is being calculated on the total sum ? http://www.marstongroup.co.uk/customer-contact-centre/our-fees.html

If the debtor fails to contact the enforcement agent, the agent will call again until he/she is able to execute the warrant/collect the outstanding debt and charges/seize goods/confirm that it is not possible to recover the debt. (The fees and charges for each Attendance and any action taken are added to the letter fee and to the original debt. VAT is calculated on the total charges incurred.)

The way it reads, GT, makes you think they are adding VAT to the charges only. However, being cautious, I would always recommend scrutinising any charges a bailiff company imposes, not just for creative accounting, but for VAT irregularities, also. If there is ANY evidence of VAT irregularities, inform HMRC immediately. You would be surprised how finding just one VAT irregularity can lead to a catalogue of VAT irregularities. I once watched a management accountant, who was a registered expert witness, dissect a company's accounts in minute detail. By the time they had finished, they had found £750,000 of fraudulent invoices and just over £131,000 in fraudulent VAT charges. HM Customs & Excise (as they were then) where impressed with the management accountant, but not so with the company accountants and book-keeper.