Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

[rds60h]

My wife has received a PCN for a Code 34: Being in a Bus Lane, which cannot be denied as she did indeed drive in the said Bus Lane.
However, I believe that the Road Signs for this Bus Lane as seen from the road that she entered the Bus Lane are incorrect and therefore illegal.
My wife was photographed turning left from a side road onto the Bus Lane which is on a 2 vehicle width road, the lane next to the Bus Lane is for travelling in the opposite direction to which the Bus Lane goes, which in effect means that anyone turning left from this side road MUST go in the Bus Lane.
Could someone on here please confirm or refute my belief, Thank you.

[bluebottle]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Ask the local authority for a copy of the Traffic Management Order (TMO) applicable to this bus lane. My interpretation is that the road, effectively, becomes a one-way street for 12 hours a day. The TMO should show whether the bus lane is, in fact, lawful. If the local authority becomes evasive or refuses to provide a copy of the TMO, I would start suspecting the bus lane is not lawful. Where is this bus lane, please?

[rds60h]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Ask the local authority for a copy of the Traffic Management Order (TMO) applicable to this bus lane. My interpretation is that the road, effectively, becomes a one-way street for 12 hours a day. The TMO should show whether the bus lane is, in fact, lawful. If the local authority becomes evasive or refuses to provide a copy of the TMO, I would start suspecting the bus lane is not lawful. Where is this bus lane, please?

This is the TMO :: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1701...es%20000689.pdf

But they just states where the Council states the Bus Lane is, that does not and cannot confirm that the Road Traffic Signs are correct.
Even using TSM information about bus lane signs Chapter 3 Page 130 onwards. :: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...chapter-03.pdf
It is not particularly clear but "(15.24) The sign to diagram 962 should be provided on side roads to warn emerging drivers of the presence of a contra-flow bus lane on the major road. If cycles are also permitted to use the lane, the sign to diagram 962.2 should be used instead. For a bus lane on the same side of the major road as the side road, the arrow will point to the left. The sign should be accompanied by the “no left turn” sign to diagram 613." does appear to support my arguement.

The road in question is George Street West Luton, turning left into Stuart Street (Google Maps - LU1 2BJ)

[rds60h]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Right, I have done some serious research and digging around and I can now confirm that the Road Signs used in Goerge Street West in relation to the Bus Lane in Stuart Street are definitely Non-Compliant and are therefore Illegal.
As per the governments Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions and the Traffic Signs Manual, the Bus Lane sign is an information sign and is applicable to a Bus Lane with an ordinary traffic lane running along side it in the same direction.
Even if that had been the case the sign is still non-compliant because it should only be mounted on a Stop or Give Way sign when used on a side road approaching a major road.
There should have been a No Left Turn sign which there is not and there are several other mistakes, but these listed will be enough to appeal on in the time being.
Thank you Bluebottle for your advice as it was this that led me in the right direction to find the information I needed.

[bluebottle]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

This is the TMO :: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1701...es%20000689.pdf

But they just states where the Council states the Bus Lane is, that does not and cannot confirm that the Road Traffic Signs are correct.
Even using TSM information about bus lane signs Chapter 3 Page 130 onwards. :: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...chapter-03.pdf
It is not particularly clear but "(15.24) The sign to diagram 962 should be provided on side roads to warn emerging drivers of the presence of a contra-flow bus lane on the major road. If cycles are also permitted to use the lane, the sign to diagram 962.2 should be used instead. For a bus lane on the same side of the major road as the side road, the arrow will point to the left. The sign should be accompanied by the “no left turn” sign to diagram 613." does appear to support my arguement.

The road in question is George Street West Luton, turning left into Stuart Street (Google Maps - LU1 2BJ)

I have looked at the junction on Google Streetview and have spotted that there is no "NO LEFT TURN SIGN" or a plate showing the times between which such a prohibition is in force. My gut-feeling is that you should send photos of the signage at this junction to the Department for Transport and ask them whether it is compliant and lawful. If not, Luton Borough Council may have difficulty enforcing any penalty notices.

To cite an actual example of how incompetent local authorities can be where bus lanes are concerned, Plymouth City Council were revising a road scheme at the East End of the Central Area. In order to resurface a road, they had to close a lane and diverted the traffic along a bus lane. However, some muppet didn't turn off the bus lane cameras and PCC were issuing penalty notices like confetti... until someone pointed out the diversion signs clearly indicated motorists should use the bus lane. It was embarrassing for PCC as they had to tell everyone who received a penalty notice to ignore it or, if already paid, had to refund the penalty charge.

[rds60h]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Strangely enough I have just been looking at that and as you say there is no Bus Lane signs whatsoever, just the No Entry sign !
So not only have they got non-compliant signs on the side road they appear to have non-compliant signs at the start of the Bus Lane.

Thank you Bluebottle you have been so much help, especially compared to some of the muppets who have replied on some other forums who were just voicing their opinions and saying pay up.

[rds60h]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

I checked the TMO and the bus lane is cited as contra-flow and the Traffic Sign Manual states that
“ The sign to diagram 962 may beprovided on side roads to warn emerging drivers of the presence of a with-flowbus lane on the major road.”
and
“Where there is a banned turn fromthe side road and this prevents traffic from turning into the major one in thedirection of travel of the bus lane, a sign to diagram 962 should not be used.”
A sign to diagram 962 is the black and white bus lane sign, so should be used for a "with flow" bus lane, thus non-compliant.

Also, the presence of this contra-flow bus lane on the left hand lane effectively makes the road a one way street and therefore the side road has a banned turning to the flow of the bus lane so again confirming the sign is non-compliant.

And finally also from the Traffic Sign Manual “Twosizes are prescribed for the sign to diagram 962; in most cases the smallersize will be sufficient. The sign should be mounted below any GIVE WAY or STOPsign.”
the bus lane signs in question are mounted on their own separate poles but not on the Give Way sign, so for the third time the sign is non-compliant.



"

[bluebottle]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Hi,

I would recommend you take photos and approach the Department for Transport as to the legality of the bus lane and its signage. My gut-feeling is the bus lane is non-compliant due to inadequate or incorrect signage, but it is best to check with DfT just to be sure.

Hope this helps.

Bluebottle

[rds60h]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

My wife has received a PCN for a Code 34: Being in a Bus Lane, which cannot be denied as she did indeed drive in the said Bus Lane.
However, I believe that the Road Signs for this Bus Lane as seen from the road that she entered the Bus Lane are incorrect and therefore illegal.
My wife was photographed turning left from a side road onto the Bus Lane which is on a 2 vehicle width road, the lane next to the Bus Lane is for travelling in the opposite direction to which the Bus Lane goes, which in effect means that anyone turning left from this side road MUST go in the Bus Lane.
Could someone on here please confirm or refute my belief, Thank you.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10290[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]10291[/ATTACH]

Just to let everyone know that I have had my wife's Bus Lane PCN quashed.........Victory !!!
Thank you to all who have contributed and advised which all helped and encouraged me to appeal.
They have stated that "A contravention occured and that had been correctly issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004." However, because I had pointed out that there was not a "No Left Turn" sign in place when exiting the side roads, they were prepared to accept my representation and on "this occasion only" cancel the PCN and they advised me that a "No Left Turn" sign is in the process of being put in place. They then continued that "Although the sign is not currently in place, it has no relevence to the issue of our PCNs as all our signs that advise motorists of the bus lane are in compliance with regulation." and then finished with "To confirm this Notice has been cancelled on this occasion only as a gesture of good will."

Yeah Right !! Do they really think I believe that if they were in the right they would be "In the process" of putting a "No Left Turn" sign in place and that if their signs were in compliance with regulations the PCN would have been cancelled ?
I had also questioned some of the other signs with the fact that the signs showing were for "With Flow" Bus Lanes whereas this particular bus lane is registered as a "Contraflow" bus lane and therefore should have different signage..................none of this was addressed in the reply. I think you can draw your own conclussion from this.

Anyhow, as I said the PCN has been cancelled and I thank everyone for their help.

[enquirer]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

Do they really think I believe that if they were in the right they would be "In the process" of putting a "No Left Turn" sign in place and that if their signs were in compliance with regulations the PCN would have been cancelled ?

We don't believe it either ...

[bluebottle]

Re: Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

I would refer LBC's high and mighty attitude to the Department for Transport and, if there is a question of legal procedure, the Home Office, also. Local authorities do not have the power to vary nationally-applicable rules and regulations to suit themselves.