SJPN Speeding

[kri55]

Hi All

I hope some will be able to help me

On 22/05 i was stopped by the police speeding on the motorbike. My wife was stopped as well as we were riding together (on a separate bikes). Police officer said we were doing over 90mph on a 70 (non motorway). She based her judgement of our speed on the speed of her car which was 85mph and the fact we were still pulling away. We both were given Traffic Offence Report

Wife received FPN of 3 points and £100 fine last month and I was expecting to get the same thing but instead I just received SJPN

I'm not saying were not speeding but I don't understand why 2 bikes stopped together for the same offence would get different outcome.

I'm thinking of the plea guilty offer with the 33% reduction and I was wondering if you could advise on my mitigation statement as I have never done anything like that before

V1:
I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologise for my offence of speeding. I accept that this was a grave error of judgment and a momentary lapse in concentration on my side being only minutes from home after a long day riding. I would like you to consider my driving record to date of over 12 years of clean driving license as confirmation of my usually high standard of driving with care and consideration to other road users and pedestrians alike. Since the offence I’m paying even more attention to the speed I’m doing. Please consider 3 penalty points and a fine

V2:
I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologise for my offence of speeding. This was a grave error on my part, potentially dangerous, and something that could have put other road users in danger. This is not how I would normally ride, and was a momentary lapse in my judgement, after a long day in the saddle. This happened on a dry and sunny day, with a clear familiar stretch of dual carriageway in front of me – I made a poor judgement call and accept the punishment that the Court decides upon. I am pleading for leniency in my case, and hope that you will believe that points and a fine are the best course of action.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[islandgirl]

Here are the guidelines: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk...-revised-2017/
Hope to have time to comment later but where do you believe you sit in these? That is what will determine sentence more than any letter you submit

[kri55]

I believe I should be band A as my charge details box Statement of facts says 90mph on a dual carriageway with the legal limit of 70mph (see attached)

My only concern is that is the police witness statement she is saying that we were traveling between 90-96mph which would put me in the band B

Later at that statement she says that when the road goes from 70mph to the 50mph legal limit the rear motorcycle (my wife) was traveling over 80mph and she did not see me (front motorcycle) at all the time. Can that go against me as well as that would put me in the band C (see the other 2 attachments)

So as you can see its hard for me to judge how they gone class me

[islandgirl]

The evidence in teh form of the calibrated device in the car is 90 so the magistrate should sentence on that. The reality of the single justice procedure is that we are doing lots and lots of these and they are done fairly quickly as we have so many to get through. We do read the letters sent in and consider them of course but generally what matters is the evidence. The offence is absolute - it doesn't really matter that you had had a long day, the road was clear or conditions were good - the speed is what it is. A disqualification is probably unlikely but depends on the magistrate on the day. I would personally think that having 4-6 points would make you more aware of your speed in the future and therefore increase safety rather than taking you off the road for a short period and then you having no points to think about. You are looking either at a fine of 100 or 150% of your weekly income (reduced by a third for yout guilty plea) and 4 to 6 points. I would expect that you would be sentenced on the evidence of 90 rather than the judgement of 96 but there is no guarantee.

[kri55]

I agree with you - I have done something stupid and there is no questions about that. What doesn't make sense is why my wife got a FPN and I have SJPN for the same offence.

Also if the judge goes by the evidence which is 90 in a 70 that puts me on band A which is 3 points according to the link you provided. Why do you then say that I'm looking at 4-6 points and 100 or 150% of the weekly income ?

Also could you please advise on the mitigation notes if they are any good or if I should add or remove any of it.

I really appreciate all your help

[islandgirl]

It isn't a judge it is a single magistrate, just like me. I do these (when I have to as it isn't very exciting!) If the evidence is used then it will be a band A fine ( so 50% of income) less a third for the guilty plea and 3 points. You don't seem to have any aggrevating factors. If the magistrate considers the statement that the speed was 90-96 then there is a possibility of it being put into the next category of 91-100 but I would expect the calibrated reading of 90 to be used keeping it in band A and 3 points. However we do have discretion and If it moved up to a band B fine (which is possible) then points are 4 to 6 and a disqualification for a short time can be considered and the fine is 100% of weekly income. As for the mitigation, I would look at the mitigating factors on the guidelines and write relating to those - your record is the most important. Road conditions etc can be mentioned but I think your history and the fact this is a one off is the thing to concentrate upon.

[atticus]

Remember that magistrates like islandgirl are people - and that people vary. There can be no guarantee that every single magistrate will look at each case in exactly the same way.

[islandgirl]

That is absolutely correct Atticus hence why there is the possibility of this being moved up to band B....

[Manxman]

kri55 - just to clarify, your wife accepted a conditional offer of a FPN, but you've received a SJPN even though the police officer who stopped you accused you of the same speeds?

Is it at all possible that the police did send you an offer letter but you never received it? Do you have problems not receiving post as a general rule?

If I were you I'd be inclined to ring them up and ask if there is any particular reason why you are being treated differently from your wife. I'm not sure what the threshhold is before they send a case to court, but I suppose the reported evidence of the police officer might say that you were riding faster than your wife. You'll only find out if you ask them.

If it turns out that you were (or should have been) offered a FPN but couldn't accept it for reasons not of your own making (eg the letter got lost) I believe you can put that to the court as the legislation contains a provision whereby the magistrates only fine you at the fixed penalty level. I'm sure islandgirl can reference the relevant legislation.

[islandgirl]

Reading the police statement I do not think it is a mistake. The statement is above. If you did not get the letter then you can apply to court but if the police have issued a SJP notice I do not believe one would have been sent. If it had and there was no response the rider would be charged with failure to provide information. The OP can of course ring and ask if they wish.

[Manxman]

Unless anybody thinks otherwise I see no harm in asking the question? *

The police officer's witness statement doesn't seem to distinguish between the speeds of the two riders (unless I've mis-read it?) so I would have thought it was a legitimate question to ask why one rider is offered a fixed penalty and the other goes to court over the same incident.

Of course there may be a good reason (perhaps the OP has not told all of the story) but if the OP doesn't ask they'll never find out if it's "right" or not.

islandgirl - can you be charged with failure to provide information if you fail to respond to a conditional offer? AIUI this was a roadside stop and there's no suggestion of a s172 being served and not answered. If an offer letter had been sent but not replied to, wouldn't the next step be a SJPN? Which is not necessarily inconsistent with the OP's story...


* I'd have thought the worst that could happen would be to discover that the wife should never have been offered a conditional penalty! But as she was, and as she accepted it in good faith, I don't see how it could now be withdrawn. Wouldn't it be an abuse of process or something?

[islandgirl]

Good questions Manxman. I suppose this is different to the norm as the policewoman knew who was driving as she made a stop so there would not have been a fail to provide. As you say I assume if there was no reply to a conditional offer it woulod be an SJPN as you rightly say. However I very much doubt that a fixed penalty was sent. I agree that the question could be asked and that there would seem to be no disadvantage in doing so provided the fixed penalty was accepted and paid just in case!

[kri55]

kri55 - just to clarify, your wife accepted a conditional offer of a FPN, but you've received a SJPN even though the police officer who stopped you accused you of the same speeds? islandgirl can reference the relevant legislation.

That is correct. Stopped at the same time by one police officer.
We are both mentioned in the witness statement. I’m the 1^st biker and she is the 2^nd. Wife received her FPN beginning of September which was accepted and paid but I only received SJNP

Is it at all possible that the police did send you an offer letter but you never received it? Do you have problems not receiving post as a general rule? islandgirl can reference the relevant legislation.

Never had that that kind of situation and to be honest we were checking all the letters even the ones that looks like adverts

The police officer's witness statement doesn't seem to distinguish between the speeds of the two riders (unless I've mis-read it?) so I would have thought it was a legitimate question to ask why one rider is offered a fixed penalty and the other goes to court over the same incident.

Of course there may be a good reason (perhaps the OP has not told all of the story) but if the OP doesn't ask they'll never find out if it's "right" or not.

It was quite simple. Flashed by the police car, pulled over to a safe place, 2^nd police car arrived, we had a brief chat about the speed in general, accidents and the bikers accident rate, given a TOR each and off home

I'd have thought the worst that could happen would be to discover that the wife should never have been offered a conditional penalty! But as she was, and as she accepted it in good faith, I don't see how it could now be withdrawn. Wouldn't it be an abuse of process or something?

This is what I was worried about. If they decide that wife shouldn’t receive the FPN and she will end up in court as well.
Could you confirm that if she accepted and paid for the FPN (which she did) there is no way police can revert that and sent her to court

[Manxman]

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not in a position to confirm anything. Some lawyers will offer a free consultation of 30 minutes so you should try to find one and ask them. (Your local Citizens' Advice Bureau should have a list of solicitors providing such a service)

However, if your wife was offered a conditional fixed penalty as an alternative to going to court, and she accepted it, then I'd be surprised if the police could renege on it. The law doesn't often concern itself with issues of "fairness", but there is such a thing as abuse of process, which is considered "legally unfair" in layman's terms, and the law frowns upon it.

The question then becomes (as islandgirl has already suggested) did your wife actually comply with the conditions of the fixed penalty? So did she send her licence off? That's usually the most important condition and the one that many people fail to comply with. If she did send it off, has she received it back? Has the penalty amount definitely been paid and definitely has not been returned into her account? Usually when somebody fails to comply with the conditions attached to a fixed penalty the penalty amount is refunded back to their account. Is there anything else that might suggest that - for whatever reason - the payment and/or the licence has not been accepted?

I think that if she has accepted and paid the conditional penalty, then that should be the end of the matter for her, and that it is probably safe for you to raise the question. But as I say, I'm not a lawyer and can't give you legal advice about this.

It's entirely up to you if you want to follow it up. Depends how much this means to you. As I said, you could try to find a lawyer via CAB...

Another alternative would be to try that other forum that specialises in driving offences. The one where the letter "p" appears three times in its name...

[Manxman]

Just to emphasise, I still see nothing in the officer's statement suggesting that your riding was worse than your wife's or why she was offered a fixed penalty and you weren't.

But I must admit I'm not up to date regarding when fixed penalties can or cannot be offered. Maybe there's a perfect valid reason for the different treatment that none of us here are aware of?

As I said in my previous post it's really up to you how to approach this and how far you want to try to make an issue of it.