Previously posted, removal notice

[WorriedParent]

Hi, I previously posted about a liability order to which the thread has now been closed as I hadn't returned. Thank you all for your advice, to which I'm now in the process of trying to sort. I had rang the council and was told I'd receive a form to fill out regarding when I vacated the property, any proof I may have of that, and any details regarding the landlord. I had 7 days to fill this out before I could do nothing about it, I never received said form so can only imagine they sent it to that previous address, although I have no idea why as I've told them numerous times of my address including when I rang them that day to clear it up. I'm expecting a phone call back as soon as possible as when I ring up nobody has any idea of what I'm talking about.

I don't entirely understand everything that was spoken about in the last thread and I'm unclear about what I should do next. I do have an appointment at CAB, delayed as I've had all of my energy in another situation regarding housing and the possibility of being kicked out of my home as there was a mistake with housing benefit, which is hopefully now being sorted.

I've also been dealing with the news of an unplanned pregnancy (now 20 weeks) whilst on birth control/contraceptives, as well as a 10 month old, so to say my mind is a little frazzled at the moment is an understatement.

Now that the two week hold on my account is up I have received a letter this morning (just before 8am) from Rundles, a 'magistrates liability order removal notice'. It says they have tried numerous attempts for payment, only one of which I'm aware which was the last liability order, to which I rang and attempted to make payment and they refused.
It also states that 'I called today with the intention of removing goods', contact immediately or they will return to complete said actions whether I am present or not. First question, can they enter my home without my permission or force their way in while I'm there or not? The date they will return is 1/10/16 between 6am-9pm

Also states I will be liable for a minimum £110 fee plus disbursements. And that the only way to avoid these charges and the removal of my goods is to arrange payment of the debt in full, which is completely ridiculous since I cannot even afford to pay council tax on monthly basis.

'No response will be seen as your wilful refusal to pay' Is this correct as I have already made an attempt to make small monthly payments and they refused?

My minimum payment is £794.98. I don't own any goods of any value, only a cheap TV and laptop which were both gifts.

I am seeing CAB tomorrow so will be taking this information with me, but I was told by the woman on the phone for Rundles that they cannot do anything as they still will refuse the monthly payments. Is this true? Is there anyone else I can contact as I think the way they have gone about this isn't right. They said it will go to court before a payment plan is sorted which then there will be fees on top of that too.

Thank you all for your advice, it's really appreciated. I will update when I know more from CAB tomorrow.

[charitynjw]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

I've also been dealing with the news of an unplanned pregnancy (now 20 weeks) whilst on birth control/contraceptives, as well as a 10 month old, so to say my mind is a little frazzled at the moment is an understatement.

A potential 'vulnerable' situation per Taking ControL of Goods National Standards?
[MENTION=15129]Crazy council[/MENTION].......any opinions?

[Indebt]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

In order to make anyone listen to you, you need to issue a formal complaint as suggested in post #4 of the other thread.

Until you have been given 7 clear days notice, s prescribed in legislation (Regulation 8(1) of the Taking control of Goods Regulations 2013), a bailiff should not visit you. In addition, Rundles have added a figure of £235 for visiting at your old address. There is no incentive for them to re-issue the notice to your correct address, as they will be £235 worse off.

Furthermore, the bailiff has stated that goods will be removed and/or further charges will be added to the account, before knowing whether these actions are possible. This is in breach of Paragraph 20 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014. There has been suggestions that the National Standards are simply guidance. This is absolute nonsense and many contracts between councils and bailiffs have a clause whereby bailiffs must operate under the National Standards. We are talking a complaint here, not a legal argument. People need to understand the difference between the two.

You should mention your anxiety (along with any evidence_) as well as your pregnancy. Simply being pregnant is unlikely to stop bailiffs attending but it is important that they are made aware of your situation.

The CAB are sadly, highly unlikely to be of much help as they simply cover anything and everything and have no real in depth knowledge of council tax enforcement.

You should also include in your complaint, the fact that you have no goods of value and that the correct procedure for Rundles to follow would be to carry out an inspection to confirm this and then to return the debt to the council, in order to enable alternative options to be carried out Again, there will be no incentive for Rundles to do this, as they will not get paid any money for doing so. Nevertheless, it is the correct course of action for them to take.

You need to be prepared to allow Rundles into your home, if you are confident that there is nothing of value in there. If in doubt, remove anything of value prior to the visit.

End your complaint with a request that enforcement is placed on hold whilst this matter is being investigated.

[Milo]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

Hi, I previously posted about a liability order to which the thread has now been closed as I hadn't returned. Thank you all for your advice, to which I'm now in the process of trying to sort.

I had rang the council and was told I'd receive a form to fill out regarding when I vacated the property, any proof I may have of that, and any details regarding the landlord. I had 7 days to fill this out before I could do nothing about it, I never received said form so can only imagine they sent it to that previous address, although I have no idea why as I've told them numerous times of my address including when I rang them that day to clear it up.

I'm expecting a phone call back as soon as possible as when I ring up nobody has any idea of what I'm talking about.

I don't entirely understand everything that was spoken about in the last thread and I'm unclear about what I should do next.

Unfortunately, the previous thread became so very confusing indeed.

If you did not receive the forms from the council then you really should have contacted them beforehand, and in partucular, in view of the fact that the account was only on hold for 14 days.

Tomorrow you are seeing the CAB and please do post back after that meeting. They can also assist with a letter to Rundles as well as compiling an Income & Expenditure.

I appreciate that you may be worried at the thought of bailiffs but the good news in your case (which unfortunately is not the same in most cases), is that you do not have a car outside (in fact you do not own a car) and unless you allow the bailiff entry into your property (which you must not do) then the bailiff has extreme difficulty in getting this debt collected and in time, he will very likely return the case back to the cuncil. When will that happen?.......is anyone's guess. Some bailiffs return accounts back after 3 months, others can be 6 months.

I note that you are 20 weeks pregnant. Although pregnancy can be a determing factor for 'vulnerability', it is generally accepted, that in most cases, vulnerability will apply where the person is in the last stages of pregnancy (7 or 8 months).

Please also ignore the 'threat' from the enforcement agent about 'wilful refusal'. This does NOT apply to you.

What you need to do is to ensure that you do not allow the bailiff into the property and ensure that you concentrate on trying to get the necessary evidence together to prove that one of the Liability Orders (the largest one) is not owed by you.

[WorriedParent]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

I will write up a complaint letter right now. Should this be to Rundles, the person mentioned from the council or both?

I have contacted them since not receiving the forms and I just get passed around and told that somebody will ring back as they didn't know who to direct the call to. They were very rude and unhelpful, and still yet to receive a call back.

Sorry, both posts are conflicting, do I have to let them enter so they can see that I have nothing or should I refuse entry all together? So they won't take me to court for the debt? I was told that it would go to court where they would be told again I have no money to give, on benefits etc and that a small percentage would just be taken from my benefits. Is this false?

According to the council I have no proof of not owing the money as in their eyes I can't prove I didn't live there. Only contact from the landlord or a tenancy agreement would be sufficient evidence I was told, which I have neither, which leaves me liable. I will be bringing it up with CAB to see if there is anything they can do, but it isn't looking good.

Thank you for your replies.

[Indebt]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

Just to clarify here:

1. A £235 fee has been added to this account that needs removing
2. If there are no goods to take control of, the debt should be taken back by the council so that alternative enforcement options may be considered.

Sending Rundles an I&E breakdown will not assist in achieving either of the above.

The OP is pregnant, suffering from anxiety and has a lot of other issues going on at present. The very last thing that she should be exposed to are bailiff visits. We need to be looking at stopping visits taking place, NOT simply telling the OP to keep her doors locked.

- - - Updated - - -

I will write up a complaint letter right now. Should this be to Rundles, the person mentioned from the council or both?

I have contacted them since not receiving the forms and I just get passed around and told that somebody will ring back as they didn't know who to direct the call to. They were very rude and unhelpful, and still yet to receive a call back.

Sorry, both posts are conflicting, do I have to let them enter so they can see that I have nothing or should I refuse entry all together? So they won't take me to court for the debt? I was told that it would go to court where they would be told again I have no money to give, on benefits etc and that a small percentage would just be taken from my benefits. Is this false?

According to the council I have no proof of not owing the money as in their eyes I can't prove I didn't live there. Only contact from the landlord or a tenancy agreement would be sufficient evidence I was told, which I have neither, which leaves me liable. I will be bringing it up with CAB to see if there is anything they can do, but it isn't looking good.

Thank you for your replies.

Send the complaint to the council. It should go to the recovery department or Director of Finance. If you don't know who they are, send it to the CEO and it will be filtered down to the correct department. If you can send it by email, it would be better as speed is of the essence.

CC Rundles in on the complaint but it should be addressed to the CEO.

[lgfa92]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

What I always used to say to people (I worked in council tax enforcemnt for 10 years) was that the enforcement agent has to make a decision when he was looking at a case - does the value of the case, when compared to his other workload, warrant him keeping the case and try again or returning it to the council (assuming the council weren't withdrawing the action).

Some enforcement agents are more keen than others to return cases to the council (probably because the agents are benchmarked on their collection rates and they'd sometime rather concentrate on other cases which may be more easily collecteable).

If the enforcement agent send the case bacl to the local authority then they could go for a committal application and then (in simple terms) the magistrate would have to decide if you not paid when you were more than able to.

In respect of disputing liability you need to be able to show why you don't have the liability - on points exactly are you disputing liability ? Ultimately liability is not a decision for the magistrates court so where the council have determined you should be liable for a period you have to dispute that via a Valuation Tribunal - you need to be going down the route of a Section 16 appeal.

Craig / lgfa92

[Indebt]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

LGFA

The authority would not be allowed to go for a committal hearing until an attachment had been considered. Case law has determined this.

In this instance, we need to take the decision out of the enforcement agents hands, as he has not provided the OP with a notice of enforcement. He has no right to decide whether it is worthwhile pursuing as he should not be visiting in the first place.

[lgfa92]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

For anyone following the points regarding committal and how it goes - the main points are now in this thread http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...n-thread-no-78

Craig / lgfa92

[Indebt]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

And just to reassure the OP, she cannot be committed to prison as she is a mother, pursuant to Article 8 of the Human Rights Act 1998, Right to Respect for Private and Family Life:

There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

I know you have already been given contradictory information on this thread, but I am going to say take all the details about this bailiff & alleged council tax to CAB tomorrow and do NOT let a bailiff into your house.

[Indebt]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

Worried Parent. I am sorry, I did not make myself clear in my first post. You should not let the bailiff into your home in the short term if he returns. Looking further ahead, it is one way to get the account taken away from Rundles if you allow the bailiff in and he confirms that there is nothing of value to take. Ideally, we need to ensure that enforcement is stopped in order to give you breathing space whilst this mess is unravelled.

[WorriedParent]

Re: Previously posted, removal notice

Hi thank you all for your advice.

I have spoken to CAB who have advised the following; either creating a paper trail, writing to the council about Rundles, how they've refused my offer and are requesting money I simply don't have etc and to call them off for the time being, or taking out a debt relief order which at this stage would be much better for me as the stress is already affecting me mentally and I don't think I could go through months of fighting them to remove half of the debt which I don't owe as well as the prospect of them turning up at my house.

Thank you all for your help, I hope to never need your advice again in future and make sure council tax is always on time! Haha. Much appreciated x