Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bills

[Littleish]

Hello All,

In 21/05/2013 to 20/11/2013 I rented a single room in a 6 bedroom house with the management agent Endeavour Living (who are now no longer in operation). This property was in the Barnet Council area. This was an all bills included type arrangement, my contract for this house read -

19. The tenant(s) will not pay for any bills of the property, as this will be included in the rent and will not be liable for any liability. This includes council tax, water, gas, electricity, TV licence and wireless Internet.
20. Endeavour living takes all liability for all of the bills listed in point 19.

From 10/11/2013 I moved into a house in Brent. On the 1/11/2013 I filled in a form on the Barnet website. I had incorrectly believed that I was moving into a property in the Barnet area (It's right on the boundary). I told Barnet Council I was moving from {shared house in Barnet} to {new house in Brent}. After I realised I was actually moving to Brent, I then went ahead and contacted Brent and paid council tax with them no issues. I then received a council tax bill for {shared house in Barnet} - this was forwarded to me via mail redirection. I contacted them, explained that Endeavour paid council tax there, not me and that I had moved out on the 20/11/2013. On the phone I was told they could see the mistake, would sort it - unfortunately I don't have any records of this but I didn't hear from then again ... until last week.

I received two bills from them, amounting to ~£1,900 for a time period in 2013. Unfortunately I work away from home and don't have the copies of the letters for the exact dates - I'm not sure if they only fall during my tenancy time or anytime after / before.To my knowledge, Endeavour Living paid the council tax for the entire time before/after/during my tenancy.

When I contacted Barnet Council via phone today, I found out that they had been attempting to pursue me for the ~£1,900 of what they believed to be outstanding council tax, and had launched debt recovery and court action against me - which they stated they successfully won in 2014. It is only now that they had managed to find 'me', sending council tax letters to my current address. On the phone, they said I would need to email them proof of the letting agency paying - even if it was just a letter from the agency confirming that they paid - but with the letting agency now insolvent and uncontactable this is not possible.


At first (to me) this seems like a clear cut case - I have my tenancy from the time saying that I am not liable and that it is their responsibility to pay.
Obviously, I filled out the form but on this form I told them I was moving from the property now causing the issue, to a new one.

Am I liable for any fines / legal fees relating to this whole mess?
Before filling out the form, I had no dealing with the council, Do I have any responsibilities / Liabilities for any of this? Obviously I believed this issue was sorted when I called them before.

They said that they had won a court case against me - obviously very worrying for me! This is something that I clearly had zero knowledge of. I've emailed them to ask for more information about what exactly this entails. There's nothing on my credit file etc - but I'm very worried that now they have found "me" that they will attempt to escalate all of this and actually chase me for the supposed debt.

Email sent -

Hello,

I recently received two letters from yourselves regarding the property {Shared house in Barnet}. Reference number - {number} . I was a resident in this house from 21/05/2013 to 20/11/2013. These letters were the first time I was even aware that you believed that there was outstanding debt in my name for this property.
This is an error on your part - the council tax was paid for at this property by the rental agency - Endeavour Living.


I have attached the original 6 months lease for my time at this property. Page 4 highlights that I have no liability for any council tax, and that Endeavour Living take liability for paying this.


19. The tenant(s) will not pay for any bills of the property, as this will be included in the rent and will not be liable for any liability. This includes council tax, water, gas, electricity, TV licence and wireless Internet.
20. Endeavour living takes all liability for all of the bills listed in point 19.

Unfortunately Endeavour Living are no longer in business, so I am unable to contact them to get them to verify their details with you.


I have also been informed that debt recovery and court case action was taken against me, in my absence, in regards to this incorrect outstanding debt. Please can you provide details of this action and how you to plan to rectify it?


Please do not hesitate to contact me should you need any information from me to rectify this problem {ContactDetails}


Please confirm receipt of this email and I look forward to hearing how you are going to rectify this issue.


Regards

Thank you for reading

Any help or advice would be very greatly received.

[Indebt]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

The first problem you may have is that it is not for the letting agency to decide who is liable for council tax. Secondly, it is looking like the agency have not paid any council tax.

Of prime importance here is to ensure that enforcement is suspended. Get a letter drafted to the council giving all relevant details as you have done in your post above. State that you are not trying to avoid this and that as far as you were aware, you were exempt from paying, due to your tenancy agreement (enclose a copy).

State that you have never received a demand notice (a bill) for this address and ask the council to forward you a copy. Ask that you may be afforded a little time to unravel this mess and that the council place enforcement on hold whilst you are doing so. Ask that they also forward you a breakdown of the £1,900 so that you can see exactly what and from what dates, the tax is being sought.

Was it just a bedroom you rented? Shared bathroom and kitchen?

[Littleish]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

The first problem you may have is that it is not for the letting agency to decide who is liable for council tax. Secondly, it is looking like the agency have not paid any council tax.

That's a good point - I suppose the council will just look to pin it on whoever they know lived there.
I firmly believe that the agency did pay the council tax. When I spoke to the council back in 2013, when I believed it had been resolved, they said "Yes - I can see that there is an account for that address where the bill is fully paid" (paraphrasing of course). When I spoke to them today, they said that they can see that there is an account, in Endeavour's name, for that property with no outstanding balance. She said that they couldn't look into the account properly to see the full payment history to anyone except that account holder - that's why they needed some from of 'proof' from the letting agent - which I can't get them. I think this is a problem with them having two accounts, for different names, for the same property for the same time period.

Of prime importance here is to ensure that enforcement is suspended. Get a letter drafted to the council giving all relevant details as you have done in your post above. State that you are not trying to avoid this and that as far as you were aware, you were exempt from paying, due to your tenancy agreement (enclose a copy).


State that you have never received a demand notice (a bill) for this address and ask the council to forward you a copy. Ask that you may be afforded a little time to unravel this mess and that the council place enforcement on hold whilst you are doing so. Ask that they also forward you a breakdown of the £1,900 so that you can see exactly what and from what dates, the tax is being sought.

thank you, I will get this done ASAP.

Was it just a bedroom you rented? Shared bathroom and kitchen?

It was just a bedroom. We had a shared bathroom / kitchen. There were 5 other people living in the house.

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Hi there ... a messy situation but one that I have been close up and personal to on a few occasions ( I was a council tax enforcement officer for 23 years ).

You rented a room for the period 21/05/2013 to 20/11/2013. Was this a single room alongside five other bedsits that were all occupied? And where you all shared common areas such as living room, kitchen and bathroom? ( sorry, just noted you have already said that ) .

IF so, then the house was clearly an HMO, house in multiple occupation, and the landlord remains responsible for the council tax. That is clearly defined by your tenancy agreement ( lucky you have that ).

The only other way that the council can tax you is by joint and several liability where each and every party is named on the account. There are two problems with that route and that is that any one party can be taken to court for non payment and of course for room lettings like these, people come and go all the time so establishing liability on a 'per person' basis is a nightmare and realistically impossible. Hence the reason for this to be an HMO and nothing else. Which it is as defined by the tenancy agreement and the clauses quoted.

Clearly, Endeavour Living have issued you with an HMO based tenancy agreement but failed to advise Barnet Council that it should have been an HMO with them as the liable party OR the landlord with Endeavour as a care of address. It sounds like they people operating this were all donuts and totally unaware of their responsibilities. Or they could have been and simply went out to maximise profit before they ceased trading. I suggest that is criminal.

Can you make any enquiries as to who operated this business and where they are now?

I suggest the way forward is to write to the Council Chief Executive - John Hooton - Chief Operating Officer and Interim Chief Executive - stating that you and the others held no personal council tax liability for the stated period as the property was indeed an HMO, again quote the tenancy agreement clause and enclose a copy of, and that as such the property should have been taxed for ctax purposes as an HMO., and that Endeavour Living have acted illegally by not advising the council of this nor making arrangements to hold the account in proper order and pay the charge on behalf of the landlord, who was the correct liable party at the time. Confirm that they have now ceased trading and give any information as to the date and anything else you can find out about them. Make sure that as such, the council has acted illegally in their attempts to charge you personally and proceed to court action as a result.

I wonder if they also paid the utility bills? Or rather failed to pay those as well. Perhaps a visit to the property and see what you can find out.

Can you please update us as to the outcome? Good luck !

[Littleish]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

So, having returned home from work for the weekend, picked up the actual council tax bills.

They are -

10/11/2013 to 31/03/14 - £795.83
01/04/2014 to 20/10/14 - £1,125.55

Interestingly / concerning, this is dated from the time after I moved out of the property. My concern now is that when I filled out the form saying I was moving OUT of the property, they've incorrectly interpreted that to say I was moving into the property - meaning it is actually fairly probable that the council tax wasn't paid for that time period. I know that the council tax was paid for the period for my tenancy, and I had incorrect assumed there was an overlap in when they were billing me and when I knew it was paid.

I have the reference number of the form that I filled in - hopefully they will be able to see that this was their error.

Hi there ... a messy situation but one that I have been close up and personal to on a few occasions ( I was a council tax enforcement officer for 23 years ).

Thank you I really appreciate your insight on this =)

You rented a room for the period 21/05/2013 to 20/11/2013. Was this a single room alongside five other bedsits that were all occupied? And where you all shared common areas such as living room, kitchen and bathroom? ( sorry, just noted you have already said that ) .

Correct. It was a single room, all the others were occupied and we shared the kitchen / bathroom (no living room).

IF so, then the house was clearly an HMO, house in multiple occupation, and the landlord remains responsible for the council tax. That is clearly defined by your tenancy agreement ( lucky you have that ).

The only other way that the council can tax you is by joint and several liability where each and every party is named on the account. There are two problems with that route and that is that any one party can be taken to court for non payment and of course for room lettings like these, people come and go all the time so establishing liability on a 'per person' basis is a nightmare and realistically impossible. Hence the reason for this to be an HMO and nothing else. Which it is as defined by the tenancy agreement and the clauses quoted.

Clearly, Endeavour Living have issued you with an HMO based tenancy agreement but failed to advise Barnet Council that it should have been an HMO with them as the liable party OR the landlord with Endeavour as a care of address. It sounds like they people operating this were all donuts and totally unaware of their responsibilities. Or they could have been and simply went out to maximise profit before they ceased trading. I suggest that is criminal.

Can you make any enquiries as to who operated this business and where they are now?

I've found this article -
http://www.times-series.co.uk/news/1...d_prosecution/
Seems like they got in trouble for not licensing their HMos.

Apparently the business name was - Knights Island Capital Ltd with Nikola Bonacic and Ben Patrick as the directors.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...02152/officers
There's still one active director for that company.

I suggest the way forward is to write to the Council Chief Executive - John Hooton - Chief Operating Officer and Interim Chief Executive - stating that you and the others held no personal council tax liability for the stated period as the property was indeed an HMO, again quote the tenancy agreement clause and enclose a copy of, and that as such the property should have been taxed for ctax purposes as an HMO., and that Endeavour Living have acted illegally by not advising the council of this nor making arrangements to hold the account in proper order and pay the charge on behalf of the landlord, who was the correct liable party at the time. Confirm that they have now ceased trading and give any information as to the date and anything else you can find out about them. Make sure that as such, the council has acted illegally in their attempts to charge you personally and proceed to court action as a result.

I wonder if they also paid the utility bills? Or rather failed to pay those as well. Perhaps a visit to the property and see what you can find out.

Can you please update us as to the outcome? Good luck !

Does this change given the new information? The bill is after my move out date, and is likely that my form filling in prompted them to move the council tax over to me. I suppose Endeavour wouldn't have noticed or just decided to chance their luck when the council tax was transferred to a different name for one of their many properties?

Thank you again for all your input =)

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Hi again Littleish ....

this makes the world sound likes its just about to implode, doesn't it?

I am afraid that councils tend to bill by assumption in the absence of any other information and this is exactly what has happened here. Councils should have visiting officers to check these kind of things but with cost cutting and work loads, these things are simply administered from desks.

Clearly these letting agents have flitted leaving a trail of debt and destruction and the council need to be made fully aware of this.

i would still write your lengthy complaint as suggested but this time include this new bill information. I assume that you can prove dates of vacation and forwarding addresses etc to consolidate your case?

I empathise with your frustration here and it all sounds so like you're dealing with a council full of donuts ... that may we'll be the case but I suspect it's all a combination of ignorance, poor training and misinformation . So nothing new there then! Good luck ...

[Littleish]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Just received this email in response to the original email that I sent them (in the first post).

Dear {Littleish}

Thank you for your email dated 29th September 2016 regarding the property {Shared house in barnet}

I note from your email you rented this property from 21st May 2013 to 20th November 2013. As per the possession order you have attached you are liable until 20th December 2013.
I have amended your bill as the account was initially created form your move in date of 10th November 2013.

Please confirm if your forwarding address is still {Current Address}

If you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact us.


Yours Sincerely



Local Taxation Officer
Barnet Council

I honestly feel like they didn't even read the original email at all?? It now sounds like they are changing the dates of the bills from

10/11/2013 to 31/03/14 - £795.83
01/04/2014 to 20/10/14 - £1,125.55

to a new bill from 20th may 2013 to 20th November 2013!!

So potentially slight progress? But also a step backwards. Very frustrating situation now!

Hi again Littleish ....

this makes the world sound likes its just about to implode, doesn't it?

I am afraid that councils tend to bill by assumption in the absence of any other information and this is exactly what has happened here. Councils should have visiting officers to check these kind of things but with cost cutting and work loads, these things are simply administered from desks.

Clearly these letting agents have flitted leaving a trail of debt and destruction and the council need to be made fully aware of this.

i would still write your lengthy complaint as suggested but this time include this new bill information. I assume that you can prove dates of vacation and forwarding addresses etc to consolidate your case?

I empathise with your frustration here and it all sounds so like you're dealing with a council full of donuts ... that may we'll be the case but I suspect it's all a combination of ignorance, poor training and misinformation . So nothing new there then! Good luck ...

I was actually pretty calm at first. Now i'm getting progressively more and more worried.
The period that they are now talking about (my tenancy) is actually when I'm pretty sure that the bills were paid by the landlord. It seems crazy that they can't do a simple cross check of what was actually paid for each address!!
I have all my tenancy agreements and a nice trail of paperwork for the property that I moved to.

Thank you for the advice =0)

My next plan of action is pulling everything together into a nice big long letter and getting it sent as per your advice earlier.

Thank you

[Indebt]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Potentially progress but still not resolved.

I would email back, thanking them for the response. However, you do not feel that the issue is completely resolved and you repeat your request for enforcement to be suspended until the matter is completely resolved. State that you are claiming exemption as the house was one of multiple occupancy whereby the landlord was responsible for the tax (as evidenced by the previously attached agreement).

If the council are claiming that you are still liable, you should put notice in writing that you wish to appeal the decision. Have a look at Section 16 of the Local Government finance Act 1992:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/16

In the first instance, you should include it in your response to the above email and you should outline your reasons. Stress that enforcement should be placed on hold whilst this appeal is in place. Out of interest, ask the following;
1. Are you being pursued for the entire tax for the property?
2. Are any other residents named on the bill?
3. If so, how many?
4. Have any other residents been pursued for this liability?
5. If not, why not?
Can the council confirm the dates of all notices sent to you and the address to which they were sent.

Any problems, post back

[lgfa92]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

A Section 16 appeal to a Valuation Tribunal is the way to go however you must first have served written notice on the local authority.

Unless the local authority notify you of a response to your intention to appeal and you are still aggrieved then they must be given 2 months to resolve the situation after the written notice of the intention to appeal was first served on them. After these circumstances occur then the appeal can be passed to the tribunal.

LGFA92

[Littleish]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

WE HAVE SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!

Today, about 16 minutes ago, I got this email -

Dear {Littleish}

I write with reference to your email dated 05/10/2016. I apologise for the delay in responding.

The above account reference has been nullified as you are considered to be a tenant in a property that is HMO. You are no longer considered to be liable for council tax for the above property.

I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Yours sincerely




And just like that it's all over!!!!!!!!!!!


thank you so so so much to everyone from here who helped with this =)


I have sent a follow up question about the court action that someone mentioned on the phone.
they CC'd enforcement in the email - so that will hopefully rest any thing from that end.


thanks again guys =D =D =D

[lgfa92]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Good result - under regulation 8 of the Council Tax (administration & enforcement) regulations 1992 & The Council Tax (liability for owners) regulations 1992 you should never have been liable however it sometimes takes a little while for the information to filter through correctly and the records to be updated.

[Adamna]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

And who should pay with unwarranted stress an inconvenience for the council's negligence? Poor Littleish. An apology does not suffice. There is nothing to celebrate here.

[seduraed]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

Print it out and keep it.

[Adamna]

Re: Surprise 2013 bill (and court) for shared house where letting agent paid all bill

All of them? Could wallpaper a room I suppose, and call it the naughty corner.