Recovery Order threat.....

[Leu]

HI there!

I hope you people can help me out and where I stand on a legal basis.......I'm getting really worried.

Over the last few months I've received two reminders from my local council regarding my council tax. Ignoring them as I had made payment, I unfortunately received a final notice this month. I did send a letter stating that my payments have always been made on time. I presented the recovery officer with dates of payments. However, she replied stating that if my dates match with their database than I've been making late payments.......it gets better, she has given me until the 10th October to present my case further before issuing a recovery order.......this is the letter I am due to send her.

I have edited some info for confidentiality.

My payments are due before the 1st of each month.


Having read the statement of payment you enclosed with your letter, I can confirm payment of £14.82 for the April 2016 instalment was made using Pay Point and received, two days before payment was due, by XXX Borough Council on the 29^th March 2016. A further four consecutive payments of £11.00 were made.

Payment for the May 2016 instalment was made on the 29^th April 2016 at XXX Borough Council (case reference XXXX / receipt number XXXX). According to my bank statement payment was received by XXX Borough Council on the 30^th April 2016. You claim this payment was received on the 26^th May 2016, 19 working days after payment was made, the responsibility for that delay must lie with your colleagues mishandling this payment.

On the 26^th May 2016 payment was made for the June 2016 instalment using Pay Point. XXX Borough Council received this payment 21 working days after payment was made. Similarly, on the 25^th June 2016 payment was made for the July 2016 instalment which XXX Borough Council received 21 working days after payment was made using Pay Point. On both occasions payment was made on time and I could not have foreseen the considerably delay in Pay Point issuing those payments.

Payment for the August instalment was made on the 20^th July 2016 using XXX Borough Council’s website (ref: XXXXXXX / customer services case number: XXXXX). According to another bank statement XXX Borough Council received this payment on 21^st July 2016. You claim this payment was not received until the 25^th August 2016, 26 working days after payment was made, clearly this delay again is the result of mishandling of payments within your department.


As you can see from the partial letter, I will be providing evidence but she seems adamant I am in the wrong.......can my local council pursue this further? While two of my payments had been late it wasn't my fault. Is there anything I can add that may help her to think twice in pursuing this or anything to make my point further? Any feedback will be welcome.......though reading here I guess I should simply just join the club!

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

From what you say, you are using a variety of payment methods to pay your council tax, namely via Paypoint and direct to the council office ... is that right? I have to say that payments made direct to the council offices ( I am assuming this is what you meant ) would carry your council tax account number and should go directly onto the live account by default ... I cannot understand how it can take a month unless these people are using fountain pen ledgers! Were these payments online or cash/cheque to the council office? And were they by visit or by post?

If I were you, I would have simply asked them how much they would require to bring the account up to date and in line with their given instalment schedule and pay that without question. That is the usual practice to avoid the matter going to summons. Did you do that? As I said, it is confusing that you have made a mixture of Paypoint and council website online payments, but to make a payment online and have it acknowledged nearly a month later suggests confusion somewhere along the line. And when you talk about 'according to another bank statement' what exactly are you referring to?

This council may well be a tad over enthusiastic in collection but it does sound like your payments have been running late. As I said, asking what is outstanding and paying it on receipt of the final demand ( this may only be bringing due instalments up to date and getting the council's agreement to reinstate instalments which they should give ) should stop the matter being referred to summons. Once you have a final demand, you lose your right to pay by instalments, but any decent council should reinstate those if you pay everything that is due to date.

[Leu]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

Hi Snoppy

I had used Pay Point previously, but now am paying using the council's website....but as you can see that has even caused issues.

> The first payment in the letter was by cash using Pay Point
> The second payment was made during a visit to their office, using my debit card and processed by a member of staff from the council tax department. The reason I paid in their office was due to having an issue with my Pay Point card on that day.
> The two further payments were paid in cash using Pay Point (issuing 21 days later)
>The last payment on the letter was paid through the council's website using my debit card. I chose paying online after receiving the Final Notice as I became aware that there was a serious issue with my payments.

Regarding my bank statement, this shows that two of the payments made using my debit card were transferred by my bank to the council before the due date of my council tax.
I'm not sure my payments have been running late due to anything that I've done. I have always maintained my payments and not sure I could be liable for the actions of a third party (Pay Point) the council use to collect payments. I believe Pay Points estimate of issuing payments to the council is between 3-5 working days, however two payments took considerable longer.

I am on a low income and unable to pay off the outstanding amount in one lump payment, I believe the outstanding amount is about £70-80

[outlawlgo]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

The circumstances as you've described don't point to it being the problem but I'll ask anyway whether you have arrears from a previous year which might be causing complications.

[Leu]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

Hi outlawlgo

No, I've never had this problem in all the years I've made contributions...I've never have been in arrears....that's why I'm so shocked by it all. It's happened in just a short amount of time. The reminders and final notice all relate to the time periods as mentioned above.

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

Hi Snoppy

I had used Pay Point previously, but now am paying using the council's website....but as you can see that has even caused issues.

> The first payment in the letter was by cash using Pay Point
> The second payment was made during a visit to their office, using my debit card and processed by a member of staff from the council tax department. The reason I paid in their office was due to having an issue with my Pay Point card on that day.
> The two further payments were paid in cash using Pay Point (issuing 21 days later)
>The last payment on the letter was paid through the council's website using my debit card. I chose paying online after receiving the Final Notice as I became aware that there was a serious issue with my payments.

Regarding my bank statement, this shows that two of the payments made using my debit card were transferred by my bank to the council before the due date of my council tax.
I'm not sure my payments have been running late due to anything that I've done. I have always maintained my payments and not sure I could be liable for the actions of a third party (Pay Point) the council use to collect payments. I believe Pay Points estimate of issuing payments to the council is between 3-5 working days, however two payments took considerable longer.

I am on a low income and unable to pay off the outstanding amount in one lump payment, I believe the outstanding amount is about £70-80

Hi again Leu ...

I am wondering if you are confused over debit card payments? If you are making these on the council website, then unless I am mistaken, they are an instruction for payment to made immediately and under the 'fast payment' scheme operated by many banks, that is an instant payment. Am I right is assuming that you thought this would come out later as the 'due date' approaches?

Even though I have worked in the industry for many years, I echo your comments about being on a low income and struggling to make payments on time and this resulting in over zealous officers giving you absolutely no leeway to deal with the situation. There is a big difference between people struggling to make payment but having commitment to do so and those that simply don't give a fig. It seems you are making every attempt to be good to the council but thwarted by lack of cashflow and possibly understanding of situations.

And for people in your exact situation, the penalty system of enforcement can be damaging and unfair. My suggestion is not to let these people grind you down, make every attempt to clear the £70-£80, even by borrowing, and ensure you speak to the council to get them to acknowledge the payment and that you are up to date. By all means, use the hardship story and that you are a committed payer and you would greatly appreciate their cooperation to let you clear the instalment debt by the date you mention. I appreciate that councils have to have a level playing field for everyone but there is always room for good customer relations ( although many of my ex colleagues would never agree with that! ).

[Leu]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

Hi Snoppy

I decided to pay online using my debit card as it would be obviously quicker......but the council is claiming for two of the payments (paid by debit) they did not receive payment until days after my due date. As you can see, on one of them 26 days later. My bank statement shows that was not the case and they received it the day after I made that payment......but the council at the moment is holding me responsible for that delay.

Truly, Snoppy......I wouldn't be on here to fuss if I wasn't that concerned over whether the council get their money or not. I've been out today to get copies of pieces of evidence for the council as well as visited my bank just to be sure there wasn't an issue and my bank statement happened to be wrong....thankfully they were helpful. In fact so interested in this they've asked me to go back to let them know how I got on.

I'm trying not to let them get me down, but I've had a few sleepless nights...is so annoying when we set out to do the right thing only to find out it wasn't good enough lol.

I'll be taking in my letter tomorrow along with my evidence....but I still have a gut feeling the recovery officer will still not accept that mistakes have been made all round but I'll be the one punished for it.

Thanks for your help and advice Snoppy. Once I hear more after tomorrow I shall be sure to post on here.....it may even help others too in a similar situation.

[wales01man]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

When you prove to them they were wrong demand a written apology and inform the CEO of the council how badly they run the council

[Leu]

Re: Recovery Order threat.....

Hey wales01man

I'm learning quickly, proving the council wrong seems far easier than getting them to admit it. I have done quite a bit of research over the last couple of days and it does seem many councils are set out to persecute people. So many people in similar situations to myself.

I have been thinking about writing to those higher up the chain, regardless of how my situation turns out. I think the issue here with the council is the mishandling of payments. Also, while people are responsible for making payments on time, they shouldn't be responsible for the actions of third parties involved with collecting payments.......its shocking to learn councils seem to believe we are!

The Pay Point option for making council tax payments is risky...and I personally would suggest people to avoid that option for paying their council tax. I did forget to mention to Snoppy, I also went into the council offices on my way and asked at reception how long payments take using Pay Point and online......she told me Pay Point takes 5 days for them to receive payment and online almost instantly, which I aready knew but wanted to hear it from a council staff member.....I did change my letter this evening to reflect that information. Give them enough rope.......lol

Thanks for your response, wales01man