Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

[Rushy]

I rent a property out which has been vacant for a short period, so I am liable for 100% council tax on that property when not tenanted.
The council had my home address but appears to have sent initial demands only to the rental property. The first notice I received was a final bill and threat of court action sent to my home address - but no copy of the bill and no breakdown of how the amount was calculated. I emailed and asked for this is information. They sent it to me but the account start date was incorrect - the tenant was still responsible for the property. I wrote to them clarifying what the correct start date, advising also when new tenants were moving in and requesting a corrected bill. They sent me a summons and about £120 court costs (more than the bill). I emailed them again to query the summons but heard nothing. I called the council tax office yesterday to discuss the matter but their systems were down. All they could say was that my account was shown as on hold until 24th - but the hearing is on 25th. Today I received a letter (dated 17th) saying the hearing is going ahead but not explaining why they won't correct the account start date and issue me an amended bill.

I run my own business. Going to court is the best part of a day lost. I have cooperated with them as far as possible, given their lack of communication.

Can I realistically counter-claim anything?

[mystery1]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

You don't counter claim. You need to look at cpr 27.14 2 (g) as the normal amount for a day off is £90 but i'm guessing it'll be more than that. It certainly sound like unreasonable behaviour.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...s/part27#27.14

(g) such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably

M1

[enquirer]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

There appear to be two issues:

(1) Whether or not they acted correctly in issuing a Summons at all (premliminary correspondence, Liability Order properly sought).
(2) Whether or not the claim itself is correct.

With regard to (1) ...

The council had my home address but appears to have sent initial demands only to the rental property.

This does not sit well with what you say next ...

The first notice I received was a final bill and threat of court action sent to my home address - but no copy of the bill and no breakdown of how the amount was calculated.

It appears that they did attempt to contact you. No response would automatically lead to a Summons. What is the exact chronology of what was sent, and to where?

They sent it to me but the account start date was incorrect - the tenant was still responsible for the property.

From where did they obtain this date?

With regard to (2) ...

If you can show that their claim is simply incorrect (they are claiming the wrong amount, for the wrong period), then their claim should fail. Your defence will be bolstered significantly if you can show that you repeatedly advised them of their error, but that they failed to respond.

Once their claim is defeated. then you can consider a claim of your own. This would be best based on you being able to show that they were either incompetent and/or unreasonable, and that you suffered loss as a result.

On the downside, it does appear that their initial attempts to contact you brought no response, a point that they be expected to make with some force. This suggests that the option suggested by mystery1 is to be preferred.

[Rushy]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

There appear to be two issues:

(1) Whether or not they acted correctly in issuing a Summons at all (premliminary correspondence, Liability Order properly sought).
(2) Whether or not the claim itself is correct.

With regard to (1) ...


This does not sit well with what you say next ...


It appears that they did attempt to contact you. No response would automatically lead to a Summons. What is the exact chronology of what was sent, and to where?


From where did they obtain this date?

With regard to (2) ...

If you can show that their claim is simply incorrect (they are claiming the wrong amount, for the wrong period), then their claim should fail. Your defence will be bolstered significantly if you can show that you repeatedly advised them of their error, but that they failed to respond.

Once their claim is defeated. then you can consider a claim of your own. This would be best based on you being able to show that they were either incompetent and/or unreasonable, and that you suffered loss as a result.

On the downside, it does appear that their initial attempts to contact you brought no response, a point that they be expected to make with some force. This suggests that the option suggested by mystery1 is to be preferred.

I don't have every date but I'll give it a go:
1 February - date upon which I become liable for council tax (day after tenant's last day).

Original demand date - I don't know as I did not receive one - possibly 5 Feb judging by mail below.

6 March - Date on reminder sent to my home address requesting payment. States total requested but no bill / breakdown.

10 March - my response by email:
I have received a reminder dated 6 March for account XXXXXX but did not receive a bill. No copy of the bill has been sent with the reminder.

Can you please confirm whether the original bill was sent to the same address as that to which the reminder was sent. Can you please send me a copy so that I can understand what period I am being billed for and how the outstanding amount has been calculated.

I trust that it is not unreasonable to ask for this information prior to payment and that the action referred to will not be taken in the meantime.

Thank you.

5 Feb - date on bill received at my home address received between 11 and 17 March - showing incorrect start account date. I assumed it was a copy sent in response to my email.

17 March - my response by email:

Thank you for sending this bill through.
I note that the billing period is incorrect. My contracts all provide that tenancies can only end on the last day of the month. The correct start date for my account should be 1 February 2014.
I have signed a contract with a new tenant commencing 12 April. Please could you send me a final bill.
Thank you.

6 April - date on summons for 25 April. However it was delivered 17 April.

17 April - my email response:

See email below which was acknowledged as received but received no response. Instead of correcting the billing period and sending me a final account as requested, you have sent me a summons XXXX.
The new tenants from 12 April (incl.) are A**** M**** and N**** J**** – as referred to below.
I trust you will withdraw the summons and send me the corrected final bill.

17 April - my email response again:

Since sending the email below I have noticed that the letter is dated 3 April. It was only delivered today and the scheduled date for a hearing is 25 April when I am not available.
I trust that you will treat my request to have the summons withdrawn for the reasons outlined below as a matter of priority.

22 April - phone call to Council Tax helpline followed by email response from me confirming discussion:

I have just come off the phone from the Council Tax line. They are unable to look into this because the system is not working. I explained that I have had no response to my emails of 27 March and 17 April. They can see my account is on hold until 24^th but don’t know why.

This is a council tax department error which I have tried to rectify by email and phone but have been unable to get any response other than “try again”. I do not intend to try again until Council Tax have responded to my communications dates 27 March and 17 April, or send me a bill for the correct period.

As previously advised I am unable to attend court on 25 April.

17 April - date of letter received received 23 April confirming that they intend to ask the magistrate for a liability order. (No reference to my correspondence.)

The only email correspondence I received from the council was acknowledgements of receipt.
Looking at the dates as they are written here - I actually wonder whether any of the correspondence from the administrator was sent in response to any of my communication.

Regarding where they got the incorrect date - from the tenant. However, as I know has happened before, I suspect the tenant has advised them when the last day of their contract is and the administrator have incorrectly attributed that day to me. I provided correct date on 17 March.

[Rushy]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

You don't counter claim. You need to look at cpr 27.14 2 (g) as the normal amount for a day off is £90 but i'm guessing it'll be more than that. It certainly sound like unreasonable behaviour.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...s/part27#27.14

(g) such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably

M1

Thanks. I will take a good look through that.

[ploddertom]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

It is unfortunate that the dice are all loaded in the Council's favour. Even if the sum demanded is wrong it is no defence to withhold payment until such time a correction is issued. You are supposed to pay what they ask for and if you end up paying over the top the Council will either Credit the balance to the next bill or will pay it back to you but only if that is requested. The Magistrates are only allowed to decide whether you are liable or not for the sums owing - a simple yes or no answer, they are not allowed to take circumstances or anything else into consideration.

[mystery1]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

It is unfortunate that the dice are all loaded in the Council's favour. Even if the sum demanded is wrong it is no defence to withhold payment until such time a correction is issued. You are supposed to pay what they ask for and if you end up paying over the top the Council will either Credit the balance to the next bill or will pay it back to you but only if that is requested. The Magistrates are only allowed to decide whether you are liable or not for the sums owing - a simple yes or no answer, they are not allowed to take circumstances or anything else into consideration.

They can take unreasonable behaviour in to account when awarding costs, win or lose, and given that the op is trying to work out how much to pay i'd say they should get hammered on costs.

M1

[Rushy]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

It is unfortunate that the dice are all loaded in the Council's favour. Even if the sum demanded is wrong it is no defence to withhold payment until such time a correction is issued. You are supposed to pay what they ask for and if you end up paying over the top the Council will either Credit the balance to the next bill or will pay it back to you but only if that is requested. The Magistrates are only allowed to decide whether you are liable or not for the sums owing - a simple yes or no answer, they are not allowed to take circumstances or anything else into consideration.

This seems to contradict the advice above - which is that the council needs to have claimed the right amount for the right period or the claim will fail. Which is correct?

[enquirer]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

I do not see that the Council can legitimately claim a sum of money that it knows (or at least suspects) to be incorrect. Nor can I see the court splitting the amount into 'right' or 'wrong' parts (how would it know?). Either the bill is right, or it isn't. You either owe £X or you don't - there's no halfway house.

The fact that you can show that you have repeatedly tried to deal with them in order to pay, means that it will be very difficult for them to credibly claim that you have refused payment.

How can a magistrate grant a Liability Order for £X when you can prove that the Council's figures are nonsense? To do so would be outrageous.

[Adamna]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

I do not see that the Council can legitimately claim a sum of money that it knows (or at least suspects) to be incorrect. Nor can I see the court splitting the amount into 'right' or 'wrong' parts (how would it know?). Either the bill is right, or it isn't. You either owe £X or you don't - there's no halfway house.

The fact that you can show that you have repeatedly tried to deal with them in order to pay, means that it will be very difficult for them to credibly claim that you have refused payment.

How can a magistrate grant a Liability Order for £X when you can prove that the Council's figures are nonsense? To do so would be outrageous.

I unintentionally arrived at this old thread, and have a question.
It seems to me, after experiencing similar issues and doing much research, that the Liability Order is not for an 'amount', but an order confirming technical liability for the property, no more, no less. And this may be why the court won't hear any argument about the amount. If you appear (and lose a day's work) the best you can expect is an adjournment. It seems left to the council to decide what the amount may be, even though they have a biased interest. This could be why they get away with not putting an amount on a Liability Order (if you ever get to see one).
They don't put a name on it either though (if you ever get to see one).
Any argument about liability won't be heard in court either; it's not in their remit.
Hence the routine walkover on both counts, there is no argument to be had even if you have prepared a legitimate objection and lost a day's work to do so. Both steal valuable time. This is offensive.
The summons (and legislation) state that you should appear before the court "to show why he has not paid the sum which is outstanding." The courts are not interested in any argument about how the council has acted, why you have not paid, or whether the actual sum is correct. They expect the council to sort that out before you get into court. Why? What if they don't?
Any educated thoughts?
I cannot think of another area of law that is permitted to operate this way. It's rubber stamping a licence to forcibly collect whatever they fancy, with no sensible forum for a challenge. Outrageous indeed.

I also wish people would come back and post the outcome as it would be really helpful.

[Rushy]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

"I also wish people would come back and post the outcome as it would be really helpful."


Fair point. Although there is no useful advice from my outcome, I'm afraid.

In my case, as I recall, I called the council again on the morning of the hearing and they advised that they had withdrawn their claim. I received a letter from them a week after the hearing date confirming this. And then a corrected bill.

Such a lot of time wasting and leaves residents hating their councils.

[Adamna]

Re: Are there grounds to counter-claim costs at Magistrates court?

Thanks Rushy, for taking the time. It isn't only you, there are a lot of threads (here and elsewhere) that don't have the last page of the book!
It is time wasting, and stressful, and unreasonable. I've also found that the Magistrates' Court will not even approach the question of costs for all that, you would need to make a separate claim in the County Court. Of course most people don't because they've had enough already.
The dice is indeed loaded in their favour, which is probably why they continue to act unreasonably. There is nothing to stop them.
And they become the enemy instead of a service provider.