Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Council negligent your are aving a laugh never LOL

yeah, I think I had my fingers crossed when i wrote that :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I think this is the final up-date on this as I seem to have exhausted all possibilities.

I've made contact with the council over payments.
They are insistent that the CT is payable from 2002 and it's not their fault that the property wasn't banded.

They will not accept any payment plan to pay this of in instalments until it has gone through the court and passed on to bailiffs. I was told to 'chip away' at the debt. Therefore any court/bailiff costs would be added to the bill. Without full payment, there was no way to stop this going to court/bailiffs.

I have received my information back that I requested under FofIA and it shows that the agency did not inform the council of the change of occupancy/purpose for the annexe in 2002 even though they told the landlord they would (and he contracted them to do so) and it mentions in their notes to new tenants that they would do. Unfortunately the agency has changed hands since moving in, so there may be no action that can be taken over this.
They have proof of the planning permission granted for the annexe.
There has never been a separate addresses for the main house and the annexe.
The main house was banded in 1993.
However, none of this information was relevant or of any interest to the person I spoke to at the council


What I've learnt from all this (any hopefully future readers seeking advice might find useful)
-make sure that council tax is sorted from first moving in, and do it yourself rather than rely on others.
-The council are never wrong (in the councils opinion) and it wont budge on their view.
-No matter what the circumstances, the tenant is always liable for the council tax (HMO aside ofc)
-Always check when moving in that the property is on the councils list
-Never take what landlords or agencys tell you as gospel, always check things yourself
-Different Council departments don't talk to each other or pass on information (they could be in breach of confidentiality if they do)
-What is at the land registry and postal addresses don't have any bearing on council tax
-what lawyers and CAB tell you and what the council think can be 2 different things and will take a lawyer (or someone better than me) to argue with the council on these points.
-always check the wording in a tenancy agreement
-when a councils web site says 'seeks advice from the CAB', they don't really mean it. The CAB advice is different to what the council think anyway.
-have a friendly landlord!!

Lastly, many thanks for all those that have tried to help. You've been a great source of information and pointed me in directions looking for information I would never have thought of. It's a great web site for those with limited legal knowledge seeking help, long may it continue.

And in case anyone is wondering, the council involved is North Somerset Council

[wales01man]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Bloody hell I feel for you I cannot for the life of me why the council cannot set up a payment plan and cannot see why they want courts involved
have you contacted your Councillor or MP someone needs to get this taken away from any court action at least

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

You need to contact the Local Government Ombudsman as soon as possible and explain everything to them.

The council are trying to bully you into paying for their mistake in not banding the property in 2002 and you believe you should only be liable for the council tax from when the property was officially banded.

Gather as much evidence that the property was only recently banded and it was the councils responsibility to have the property banded and not the homeowners so you should not be held liable for anything more than the recent bill.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

the council involved is North Somerset Council

Have they been drinking too much scrumpy?

Find your local councillors and MP at https://www.writetothem.com

The Chief Executive is Mike Jackson - tel: 01934 426 826 (switchboard) 01934 888 888 (direct?), email mike.jackson@n-somerset.gov.uk

Please see https://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/Your_C...et%20(pdf).pdf

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Have they been drinking too much scrumpy?

Ha! I think they have.

I took the cheque down to the Town Hall offices today as we wanted to pay this before it all got to the messy part of court costs and bailiffs.

Now that's a lot of money to entrust in the hands of the post office to be delivered properly, you wouldn't want that getting lost. So I wanted to hand it in personally to make sure they got it.
"Oh, you'll have to put that in the box for the payments dept"
"could I have a receipt for it please?"
"No, sorry, we can't give out receipts as we're not the payments dept so we can't confirm it's been payed into your account. if you want a receipt for it you'll have to supply a SAE for them to send it to you"
"Ok, I understand that, but can you not give me anything just to say i've dropped it off just in case anything happens to it and it doesn't get credited to my account in time?"
"No, sorry, we can't give out receipts as we're not the payments dept so we can't confirm it's been payed into your account. You have to put it in the box"
"Yes I realise, but that's a lot of money. I here to pay off my bill and don't want this going to court so would like some proof i've handed in this cheque"
"Well you can pay on-line, by bank draft or at our machines here'
"No, I have a cheque"
"Sorry we can't give you a receipt for that. I can give you a comp slip with a date on it"
"great, can you write on it that I handed in a cheque for this amount?
"No, sorry, we can't give out that as we don't know it's been paid into your account, only the account dept can do that'
"just something to say I've been here and handed in a cheque?"
"No, we can't give anything like that as we can't tell that it's been paid into your account......."
"I know, I just want proof I put it in the box"
"Sorry, we can't give a receipt"



Honestly, Douglas Adams would have been proud!!

So I handed it in with a SAE, went to the car and phoned the CT dept. They happily placed a note on my account to say I've handed in a cheque.

[ploddertom]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And I thought the panto season had finished.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And I thought the panto season had finished.

It's always panto season in sunny Weston-super-Mare!!

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Their dirty tactics shine through yet again!!!

Send a bill for an amount that will and can be disputed and then bully and threaten court action to get someone to pay up out of fear of going to court.

It's a shame you didn't read up about what actually happens when the council take you to court then you may have decided differently. The whole process for getting a summons and a liability order are borderline legal at best as far as I'm concerned, and whether you turned up in court with any legal argument as to why you dispute the amount the council were claiming, or not turn up, they would have signed off on a liability order regardless and then sent the bailiffs round to bully you into paying it.

Now you have negated the threat of court by paying the bill in full, and in your name, then you should gather your evidence of the time of banding and complain to the LGO about the councils actions in issuing a bill to you for the period they did claim and that you want a refund for the years the property was not officially banded.

Why should you be personally liable for the years before you moved into the property? I know the owner/landlord paid the bill but what if the landlord wouldn't pay it, would you be liable to pay it for the whole period of the claim? Yes, because they have issued the bill in your name and can bully and harass you until you pay up.
What if the original landlord had sold up and moved on 12 months ago and the new landlord refused to pay the previous owners bills? You would still be made liable for the whole amount!

Win, Win, for the council unless you don't pay it and argue your liability for the whole amount regardless of whether the landlord was willing to pay it or not, the argument should be, are you liable to pay for the councils mistakes?

If you are then the world has gone mad.

""I have received my information back that I requested under FofIA and it shows that the agency did not inform the council of the change of occupancy/purpose for the annexe in 2002 even though they told the landlord they would (and he contracted them to do so) and it mentions in their notes to new tenants that they would do. Unfortunately the agency has changed hands since moving in, so there may be no action that can be taken over this.""

You have the proof it was the councils fault the property wasn't banded to send to the ombudsman so send it and see,
if you want to of course.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

If you were living in the property at the time the backdated bill was unpaid and think you are not liable who is?
Time to try for an arrangement with council to pay trying at the same time to get a reduction Before the Bailiffs fees start accumalating

I have to disagree I'm afraid, if the property wasn't banded then there weren't any bills being incurred on record and the council cannot just magic up a backdated bill and threaten the current occupiers for the full amount, as I said in my previous post the council failed to officially band the property and have admitted their mistake so they should just write off the non-banded years and send a bill going forward.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And I thought the panto season had finished.

Oh, no, you didn't.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

IanM,
Yes I completely agree, the council have used bulling tactics here. They sent in a bill, giving just 4 weeks to pay, in 1 lump sum, with no chance of setting up a payment scheme, thus leaving very little time to accurately build a case to show they are at fault. And when presented with this disagree point blank.

This forum has opened my eyes to the dirty tactics used by many councils in this country. I did do lot of reading around. And what I saw was that they are getting away with boarder line legal tactics and the chance of fighting them to gain a win situation was very nearly impossible.
You're right, what if my circumstances were different with the landlord. My case would be going to court very soon. I have been very lucky indeed to have a landlord who was willing to pay.

Should the council have banded it back in 2002? I can only find part evidence that they legally should have. They had a death certificate given to them due the previous occupiers death but never chased up any change of circumstances. The CT legislation says they should 'take reasonable yearly attempts to ascertain whether any dwellings are or were exempt from CT'. Did they do this. No they didn't.
No information about the dwelling has ever been asked for even though it is plainly on planning permission and other documents. I'm on the electoral role, should they not know I'm here?

Can they argue the landlord should have informed them of a change in usage? Probably. Unfortunately he relied on a trust company to do this for him and they didn't. Did he give the CT office notice that the mother-in-law died and the palce was now empty. Probably not.

Can I therefore argue successfully that it was the councils fault for not banding the annexe. I don't know if I can for sure. It has been very difficult to find concrete evidence that it was 100% their responsibility to do so and not the owners. It seems 50/50. There is nothing in legislation to say definitively that it is down to the council. If I could have proved without doubt it is the councils mistake then I would have fought it, but i failed to find it. And I looked everywhere I could think of, spoke to 3 lawyers and took CAB advise. When I presented this evidence to the council (only over the phone so far) the only answer was that none of it mattered, there was a bill to be paid and a LA would be taken up to get it, which would have involved bailiffs.

You have the proof it was the councils fault the property wasn't banded to send to the ombudsman so send it and see,if you want to of course
I can't quite see what proof I do have. What have you seen that I'm missing. From the part you've quoted it just seems the agency cocked up.

So yes, I agree with you. The stand of the little man against the might of the council (and its incompetence) is a scary place to be. It's been an exhausting few weeks.

I think I will gather all my evidence and pass this onto the LGO. The council have been incompetent in other matters (the 10 days for the delivery of the new bill has passed and it still hasn't arrived) and a complaint is needed to highlight these matters.

Thanks for your post.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Size, layout, character and locality

When valuing a property for council tax purposes we must consider the physical state of the property and its locality at a specific date on or after 1 April 1993 and then consider what its value would have been on 1 April 1991. This is the common valuation date for all council tax valuations in England. In Wales the relevant dates are 1 April 2005 when considering the physical state of the locality and 1 April 2003 when considering the value.
The following are examples, in England, of when we must consider the question of which date we should adopt to reflect the size, layout, character and locality of the dwelling:
a) A council taxpayer makes an appeal on 3 June 1999 claiming that a dwelling's banding is too high. On the basis of the appeal, we will value the dwelling having regard to all its physical factors as they existed at 1 April 93 (when the Valuation List came into force).
b) A landlord completes work to convert two flats into one on 3 May 2000. We will value the 'new' dwelling having regard to all physical factors as they existed at 3 May 2000 (the date of the merger).
c) A house owner substantially improves her home and then sells it on 6 June 2000. We will re-value the house having regard to all physical factors as they existed at 6 June 2000 (the date of sale).
Important note:
The banding of a dwelling which has had improvements which increase its value cannot be re banded until it is next sold. If you are considering buying a property which has been extended since 1993, you should be aware that the council tax band can be increased after the sale has taken place.



A lot of "WE WILL..." in the VOA section of the how your home is banded. I can't find anywhere that says, "YOU WILL....."

Their mistake, your fight!


http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Coun...eIsbanded.html

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

AN IDEA..................

Find a friend unconnected to the address in question and get them to write the following letter to the VOA:

Dear VOA,

I am considering buying a house with a large plot of land and building an annexe in the grounds but during the researching of the costs involved and the future costs, it appears that the annexe will be subject to Council Tax and I will have to have the annexe banded for council tax purposes.

I would like to know when do I need to register the annexe with you for banding is it:

a) at the planning stage?

b) when the build is complete?

c) if/when the property is sold?

d) do I have to fill out any forms to register the property?,

1) if yes, could you please send me a copy of the registration forms I have to fill in?
2) if no, could you please explain how it gets banded for council tax so I can ensure I pay the correct amount when it is due.


I look forward to your reply at your earliest convenience and thank you for your time.

yours

NAME.....




Wait for a reply and decide what to do. One letter can't hurt.

[bizzybob]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Oh, no, you didn't.

Oh yes he did

Just a little thought and lateral thinking, perhaps Bluebottles idea of using HRA might be a help, at least it would make the council think .