Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

[Buddster]

Hello,
I am seeking some advice on an issue that has just arisen regarding Council Tax and wondering if anyone can help. I have looked through the forum but can’t find any advice on my situation.
Firstly, sorry for the long post, but felt I needed to include as much information as possible.

The History.
I moved into my current residence in March 2002. At the time I was employed. I signed the tenancy agreement that was provided by the letting agency, in the presence of an employee of the agency (rather than the landlord). Just after this I asked the landlord about Council Tax payments and was told by him that it didn't apply to the property and so didn’t need to pay. I had no correspondence from the Council regarding payment and no mention of it from the letting agency.

Jump forward to November 2013.
My employment ended due to my company going into administration and I was made redundant. I made a claim for JSA and Housing Benefit (but not for Council Tax benefit). However, before doing so, I asked the Landlord what was the situation regarding Council Tax and was told again that it didn’t apply to the property.
The council wrote back querying the non-payment of council tax on the property and that they would send round an assessor to see if it was liable for payment. He assessed that indeed it was liable (Band A) and that the council will probably back date it to 2002.

I have just received a letter from the council for a bill of £10,071.34 back dated to March 2002 and due for payment on the 1st March 2014.

Notes
The property is an annexe joined onto the main house which is owned by the landlord. It is an addition to an existing house, and so planning permission was needed for it’s building. Between 1997 and 2002 it was used by the elderly mother-in-law of the landlord (who was over 70) and he was told by the council that the annexe was exempt. However, they did not explain the reason why. The landlord was therefore under the impression that the annexe was exempt due to being part of the main building.

- I am on the electoral registry and so the Council already knew I existed.
- My previous address was within the same Council area and I was paying Council tax at that address.
- I need to write to the Council to apply for single person occupancy. I am not currently claiming CT benefit,
- On my tenancy agreement there is no mention of payment for Council Tax (although it does say 'The Landlord agrees with the Tenant to pay and indemnify against all out goings in respect of the property except for electricity, gas and phone line').
- On the letting agents notes, it says that they will inform the Council of the new occupancy and the Council will be in touch regarding a new bill. I received nothing from the Council.
- If the Council has already assessed the annexe (or at least knew about it due to planning permission needed) why wasn't it on their records already and needed to be assessed?
- I have been to the CAB and was told (amongst other things) is up to the assessors to check up on property rather than the responsibility of the landlord/owner to supply it. Is this true and can I be held responsible if this hasn't been carried out?
- Can the Council back date the bill to this date, or is there a maximum of 6 years? No liability Order has been issued yet, just the bill.
-The landlord employed the letting agency to do the legal work regarding the let. Have they failed to carry this out by not informing the Council and in breach of contract?
- Is this technically a new Banding/assessment with an increase, and so can't be back dated?
- What should my first response to the Council be?

The good news....hopefully
I have spoken to the landlord about this situation and, thankfully, he has agreed to pay the full amount, as he admitted that it was his mistake originally.
We have a very amicable relationship and feel that there are other circumstances surrounding this and that the letting agent and Council are in some way negligent in letting this situation arise. If I can help him reduce the amountl or offer advise I would like to be able to do so.
However, it is still my name on the bill and will need to address this with the Council myself before it get to court or further.


I would be most grateful if any one is able to offer any advise on the best way to proceed, or if there is indeed any hope of challenging this amount.

[ploddertom]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Wow - that's some hassle you've ended up with. Council Tax is normally Satute Barred if the Council have not applied for a Liability Order within 6 years of it being due. However as yours has only just come to life then this would be difficult to argue against.

I assume if you had been paying it you would have applied for Single Person Discount which would have reduced the bill by 25%. I also assume that you will now be claiming this and asking that it be back dated. Normally the Coouncil will only back date for a limited length of time, so you may need to argue as this has now just arisen then the 25% should also be back dated for the whole time.

Councils should also have a Write Off Policy in place where various elements of Council Tax can be written off. I'm not saying they should do this but it is worth asking even if for only 10%.

To help you further you should involve your local Councillor(s) and ask they intervene on your behalf.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

thanks Ploddertom.
I have just seen a council representative and apparently there is a new bill on it’s way with the Single Occupancy reduction included.

They also checked the records for the whole property and apparently there is no record of the annexe being banded separately. However, the landlord still says he asked the council about CT for the mother-in-law and was told there wouldn’t be a charge. Unfortunately, as it has never been banded as a separate billable property, the council have no record of this.
Apparently, the annexe was built in 1990 as so was here when the Council Tax came in. The main house/annexe however were never assessed apart from the assessor driving past and making a judgement from the road (as they apparently did back then, although I wouldn't know about that). Therefore the landlord was under the impression he was being billed correctly.

[enquirer]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

... the landlord still says he asked the council about CT for the mother-in-law and was told there wouldn’t be a charge. Unfortunately, as it has never been banded as a separate billable property, the council have no record of this.

Does the landlord have anything in writing from the Council saying that there would no charge? It is also possible that the Council has a record of his enquiry.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

"""The property is an annexe joined onto the main house which is owned by the landlord. It is an addition to an existing house, and so planning permission was needed for it’s building. Between 1997 and 2002 it was used by the elderly mother-in-law of the landlord (who was over 70) and he was told by the council that the annexe was exempt. However, they did not explain the reason why. The landlord was therefore under the impression that the annexe was exempt due to being part of the main building.""""


Ask the council or your landlord for a copy of the planning application and check whether it is classed as a separate annexe or as an extension of the existing property.

If it is an annexe with a separate address, i.e. 1a Any Street, then it should have been banded as such, if it shares the same address then it is not a separate entity it is an extension with its own facilities and should be covered by the bill you have been paying.

Do you have use of the annexe as part of your tenancy agreement or does someone else live in it as a separate address?

If you have use of it, it should be covered by your CT, if someone else lives in it then they should be liable for any CT that is now due.

Councils are getting desperate for money and will try anything to get it even by deception so double check everything before you pay them anything!

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Thanks for the replies.

> enquirer. I don’t think they do have a written record, which would seem odd. I’m not very hopeful that the Council will as the officer I saw found nothing on the computer records for this address. I’ll check though.

> IanM.
I think there is some confusion. I live in the annexe and the landlord in the main house, so it would be on his CT bill. He doesn’t have use of it and I rent it as a private tenant on an assured shorthold tenancy. It is a
I will check the planning application (can I ask the council for that?). That’s a very good point. I think it shares the same address as the main house. I put ‘The Annexe, such and such an address’ just so my post comes to me and not the main house. It would seem to share the same address, it’s with in the same grounds and attached to the main house (albeit with a separate door) but I’m not 100% sure on that one. Is there a way to find out i.e. from the post office or on-line data base of property addresses etc?
If it is a separate address, such it not have been banded originally rather than almost 25 years later?

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Thanks for the replies.

> enquirer. I don’t think they do have a written record, which would seem odd. I’m not very hopeful that the Council will as the officer I saw found nothing on the computer records for this address. I’ll check though.

> IanM.
I think there is some confusion. I live in the annexe and the landlord in the main house, so it would be on his CT bill. He doesn’t have use of it and I rent it as a private tenant on an assured shorthold tenancy. It is a
I will check the planning application (can I ask the council for that?). That’s a very good point. I think it shares the same address as the main house. I put ‘The Annexe, such and such an address’ just so my post comes to me and not the main house. It would seem to share the same address, it’s with in the same grounds and attached to the main house (albeit with a separate door) but I’m not 100% sure on that one. Is there a way to find out i.e. from the post office or on-line data base of property addresses etc?
If it is a separate address, such it not have been banded originally rather than almost 25 years later?

The annexe should have been assessed at the time it was built if it was a separate property on completion.

Check with the land registry as well to see if it is registered as a new address within its own boundary.

If it is within the same boundary as the main house and not registered with the land registry as a separate address within its own boundary then it should be covered by the main house title and not liable for separate CT.

They cannot make you pay for their mistake in not banding it years ago when it was built.

Get a solicitor to look at the title deeds for you before you agree to pay the council anything.

[Amethyst]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Would there not be some covenant on an annex against it being rented out privately as a separate dwelling and could that not land the landlord in deep water for not notifying of change of use ?

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Would there not be some covenant on an annex against it being rented out privately as a separate dwelling and could that not land the landlord in deep water for not notifying of change of use ?

Good question.

There may be a condition attached to the planning permission to prevent it being rented privately, check the planning application and the permission granted, but if the owner of the main house built it I doubt he would have inserted a covenant on the deeds to prevent him renting it at a later date.

The letting of the annexe would not be classed as a change of use unless it was divided into bedsits etc to make it a HMO so unless it was mortgaged and the lender objected to it being rented out then I doubt the council would be able to go down that route, although they are sneaky beggars!!!

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Apparently there was no assessment made of the completed building in relation to Poll tax/council tax. However, the planning dept inspected the final completion and signed it off as ok.
The on-line planning application doesn't go back as far as 1990.
I can't find any reference via the Post office web site to anything but 1 building at the main address.

I've checked with the land registry. There is only 1 entry at the main house road address, not 2.
So I downloaded the documents. There is no mention of the annexe as a separate entity and on the map it clearly shows the annexe to be within the boundaries of the existing main house. The annexe is drawn on the map, attached to the house, within the boundary line.

Is this pointing to the council making a mistake in not assessing properly in the first place (i.e. just driving along the road and guesstimating)?

If have some advice from the CAB that states
Neither the liable person, nor the owner is required to inform the listing officer of any change to the dwelling which increases it's value or when the dwelling is sold. It is up to the listing officer to find this out

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Definitely sounds like the council are trying it on but you need a solicitor to look at it and give you a definitive answer.

In my opinion you don't owe them anything!

[MissFM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

- On my tenancy agreement there is no mention of payment for Council Tax (although it does say 'The Landlord agrees with the Tenant to pay and indemnify against all out goings in respect of the property except for electricity, gas and phone line').

The above is the good news, from the OP's point of view ( ie the LL has taken responsibility for his mistakes and is financially liable).

Otherwise, I'm really sorry to be a bad fairy - but (from personal experience) if the annex has a separate entrance, is a separate dwelling, has no walk-through to the "big hoose" and/or (everything being and/or) the rent is above a minimal level ( I think around £4-500pm), it's liable for its own council tax, even if unoccupied, after the first 6 months. Unless there are other valid reasons for exemption (eg disability etc.).

Bit of a minefield here but my guess is that the LL needs to sort it - the website I was looking to for guidance:

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Coun...edUnitFAQ.html

is down at the moment. Ho hum.:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[seduraed]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I have a similar annexe at the bottom of my garden which is let out . My local council ,Cambridge told me that if it is fitted with a kitchen then they would classify it as a separate address liable for its own council tax .

[MissFM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I think it also varies from LA to LA :confused2:

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Where does the fact that it was never banded since built come into it though? If the council tax dept knew about it (as the LL checked on it's status), it was built before CT came in so was here when the whole property should have been evaluated, or they incorrectly evaluated the property, and didn't set up an entry for it in their records (which I've found out that they haven't), am I liable for it being back dated?