• Welcome to the LegalBeagles Consumer and Legal Forum.
    Please Register to get the most out of the forum. Registration is free and only needs a username and email address.
    REGISTER
    Please do not post your full name, reference numbers or any identifiable details on the forum.

CT and JSA

Collapse
Loading...
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: CT and JSA

    Originally posted by andrewh View Post
    (1) Any ideas, outlawlgo, who to complain to regarding the inequality issue regarding JSA and CT? I have argued with the council and made the point before the court but got nowhere. DWP? IDS?
    I can't see neither DWP nor the council entertaining a complaint unless they are compelled by law. If they can get away with what they're doing, they will and in the absence of any High Court ruling etc., I'm sure they consider they are acting within the law. In any potential proceedings, the decision being appealed along with the relevant department needs identifying. Perhaps, as the issues have arisen because of the benefit reforms, it may be that the DWP is the department's decision which should be appealed. Then, depending on which route is taken there are time limits involved and in the case of High Court appeals, the financial implications in the likely event costs are awarded against the losing party. There is of course (if a litigant in person) the obstacles which having to comply with strict procedure rules presents.

    It's likely that the government (whichever department) would claim no responsibility as they gave that to local authorities i.e., the power to determine the way the newly named Council Tax Reduction Schemes would be administered and how the reduction in funding would be financed. The blame can now effectively be put on councils for choosing to make claimants, who were exempt from paying before the reforms, to now have to pay (in most cases) between 5 and 30%. That said, it would presumably have been the Department for Communities and Local Government which laid down the boundaries within which councils had to work, and could in that respect be said to be responsible.

    For example, the government offered extra funding (transitional grants) to incentivise councils to charge no more than 8.5% to claimants previously exempt from paying Council Tax. The extra funding was evidently not enough to tempt all councils to take up the offer as many opted to refuse it thus allowing them to charge a much higher percentage. These councils probably knew that the transitional grants would be a "one time" deal and would not be offered in subsequent years.

    In defence (to cover its back), the government would presumably say that although after CT deductions, benefit is less than the amount deemed necessary to live on (£71.70), councils have been given powers to asses cases of extreme hardship.

    It doesn't seem obvious which department needs targeting, but if responsibility could be pinned on the Department for Work and Pensions, it may then be an option to submit a Notice of appeal against a decision of that department. IDS would effectively then be the Respondent in an appeal to a Social Entitlement Chamber Tribunal. If it were possible to proceed with such an appeal, there would (as opposed to the High Court) unlikely to be any costs awarded against any party.

    The Statutory Instrument governing the procedure is the Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Social Entitlement Chamber) Rules 2008

    A booklet explaining How to appeal against a decision made by the Department for Work and Pensions is this one: (SSCS1A)

    An obvious argument to support the grounds of appeal surrounds the following paragraph taken from a local authority's website, chosen at random:

    "
    If you are in receipt of Income Support, JSA, ESA or Guaranteed Pension Credit, we can ask the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to deduct money from your benefit at source and send it directly to the Council. Only one deduction order can be set up by the Council at any one time. The deductions are currently £3.55 per week.

    If the DWP deem the maximum amount which can be deducted from these benefits is £3.55 per week, it would be reasonable to question, on this basis alone whether the £4.76 in Council Tax you're having to pay per week is legal action taken by the government. An example where the local authority has used the DWP figure (£3.55) in its Council Tax Reduction Scheme is explained in a Guardian article (Sutton, south London).

    EDIT:

    I should point this out:

    If you think our decision is wrong (page 7)

    Housing Benefit and Council Tax reduction

    Your local council makes decisions about Housing Benefit and reductions in council tax, and how much you can get. If you think a decision about Housing Benefit or a reduction in council tax is wrong, contact the council office that pays your benefit.
    Last edited by outlawlgo; 5th January 2014, 22:06:PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: CT and JSA

      Thank you ever so much bluebottle and outlawlgo. I did not expect so much support, I really did not expect all this effort.

      All I can add is that I am very surprised no JSA recipient has brought a test case. I would have thought many will (1) struggle to pay (25% of CT in my case!) or (2) protest against the blatant inequality issue.


      Thanks,
      Andrew

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: CT and JSA

        From the Taxpayers Against Poverty Website, which appears temporarily down at present.

        Council Tax Reduction Scheme – important update from Taxpayers Against Poverty

        What councils don’t tell you about the enforcement of council tax.

        Millions of people who do not pay the council tax now will be charged 8.5% to 30% from the 1st April. Millions will not be able to afford it; councils knew that when they made those irrational decisions.


        Councils will not tell you;

        1. That they have the discretion to write off the tax for vulnerable and impoverished people under clause 10 (1) 13A (1) of the Local Government Finance Act 2012. It is necessary for the council tax benefit claimant to write a letter to the council setting out their financial circumstances, all debts, and all relevant information such as health/disability. Payment of the bedroom tax, rent due to the overall benefit tax and the rent due to the housing benefit tax would be relevant.

        2. That the bottom line is the income left after rent and council tax needed for food, fuel, clothes, transport and other necessities; that has to be a reasonable amount if councils (and jobcentres) abide by the Wednesbury Principles as required by law and endorsed by coalition ministers.

        3.That page 9 of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents, published by the Ministry of Justice in 2012, sets out a procedure for bailiffs to return vulnerable cases from the door step to all creditors, including councils for council tax and courts for fines. A change of circumstances since the debt, fine or council tax arrears were incurred is another reason for applying page 9 procedure.

        4. That Ministers from the DWP, the DCLG and the MOJ all stated during the passage of the Acts of Parliament, which are creating such misery, how concerned they were for vulnerable people; see their statements as recorded in Hansard in the attached file. Councils and Jobcentres should be reminded that is the coalitions policy; even though crocodile’s tears come to mind.

        The details are on the TAP website on this PDF

        ENFORCEMENT OF ARREARS, OVERPAYMENTS AND FINES IN THE WAKE OF WELFARE REFORM AND IN THE CONTEXT OF AUSTERITY. (1)

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: CT and JSA

          Link in above post does not work.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: CT and JSA

            Originally posted by andrewh View Post
            Thank you ever so much bluebottle and outlawlgo. I did not expect so much support, I really did not expect all this effort.

            All I can add is that I am very surprised no JSA recipient has brought a test case. I would have thought many will (1) struggle to pay (25% of CT in my case!) or (2) protest against the blatant inequality issue.


            Thanks,
            Andrew
            I have a feeling this government's attempts to engineer a situation whereby they can blame the local authorities is going to spectacularly backfire on them, leading to a General Election before 2015. People are not stupid and have worked out for themselves what is going on. The politicians and those manipulating them from behind the scenes are now being blatant about what they are doing and it is this that is going to force people to decide whether they want to stop them or live under a regime similar to Nazi Germany. I know which I would prefer and it certainly ain't Nazi Germany.
            Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: CT and JSA

              Originally posted by ploddertom View Post
              Link in above post does not work.
              The website is down for some reason (Taxpayers Against Poverty). Posted the link in the hope that it will be back on-line soon.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: CT and JSA

                Originally posted by outlawlgo View Post
                The website is down for some reason (Taxpayers Against Poverty). Posted the link in the hope that it will be back on-line soon.
                Perhaps HM Government demanded a takedown if it is on UK servers. Bluebottle Camoron will not go to the country, they fixed 5 year terms as absolute did they not? Be nice to see the whole toppling edifice fall though.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: CT and JSA

                  Originally posted by bizzybob View Post
                  Perhaps HM Government demanded a takedown if it is on UK servers. Bluebottle Camoron will not go to the country, they fixed 5 year terms as absolute did they not? Be nice to see the whole toppling edifice fall though.
                  It was mooted but, to the best of my knowledge and belief, has not been placed on the Statute Book. If Cameron is forced to go to the country, he doesn't have a lot of choice. He's f****d, he knows he's f****d and he knows the Tories and their chances of being re-elected are f****d. In short, he's finished and so are the Tories who are hisTory.
                  Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: CT and JSA

                    Originally posted by ploddertom View Post
                    Link in above post does not work.
                    The website is online now and links work again...

                    Taxpayers Against Poverty Website

                    ENFORCEMENT OF ARREARS, OVERPAYMENTS AND FINES IN THE WAKE OF WELFARE REFORM AND IN THE CONTEXT OF AUSTERITY. (1)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: CT and JSA

                      Thanks outlawgo, I have downloaded the pdf, so if it vanishes again it can be shared by email.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: CT and JSA

                        Hello all,

                        I have today received the response from HMCTS to my complaint. I would be happy to email the documents should you wish to have a look at them. It makes interesting reading.

                        I would therefore encourage bluebottle and outlawlgo to PM me with email addresses. Anyone else who has contributed here is welcome, too.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: CT and JSA

                          Originally posted by andrewh View Post
                          Hello all,

                          I have today received the response from HMCTS to my complaint. I would be happy to email the documents should you wish to have a look at them. It makes interesting reading.

                          I would therefore encourage bluebottle and outlawlgo to PM me with email addresses. Anyone else who has contributed here is welcome, too.
                          A well composed complaint as is evident from the productive responses (some of them at least).

                          Where I would have expected HMCTS to side entirely with the local authority and Justices, this hasn't been the case. Although it recognised the court procedure is questionable, the options stated that are open to you involve, on one hand, a route which may cost an arm and a leg in the High Court, and on the other, the task of providing evidence that the court made a legal mistake compelling enough to convince them to re-open the case.

                          I have suspicions that the person responding to the complaint knows – by referring to your legal right of appealing the decision through judicial process – that you will be time barred. There are, as I believe, two options; one by judicial review, having a 3 months time limit to make a claim (maybe less now) and the other, by way of case stated having only 21 days from the date the liability order was granted to appeal. Both are appeals dealt with in the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court and presumably very costly if you lose.

                          The odds are truly stacked against an ordinary member of the public getting justice and what I particularly find criminal is time barring a complaint about the Justices if made after 3 months. Many clueless Magistrates must be rubbing their hands knowing that more and more obstacles are being put in the way of exposing their incompetence.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: CT and JSA

                            Originally posted by outlawlgo View Post
                            A well composed complaint as is evident from the productive responses (some of them at least).

                            Where I would have expected HMCTS to side entirely with the local authority and Justices, this hasn't been the case. Although it recognised the court procedure is questionable, the options stated that are open to you involve, on one hand, a route which may cost an arm and a leg in the High Court, and on the other, the task of providing evidence that the court made a legal mistake compelling enough to convince them to re-open the case.

                            I have suspicions that the person responding to the complaint knows – by referring to your legal right of appealing the decision through judicial process – that you will be time barred. There are, as I believe, two options; one by judicial review, having a 3 months time limit to make a claim (maybe less now) and the other, by way of case stated having only 21 days from the date the liability order was granted to appeal. Both are appeals dealt with in the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court and presumably very costly if you lose.

                            The odds are truly stacked against an ordinary member of the public getting justice and what I particularly find criminal is time barring a complaint about the Justices if made after 3 months. Many clueless Magistrates must be rubbing their hands knowing that more and more obstacles are being put in the way of exposing their incompetence.
                            You may be able to use Section 6, Human Rights Act 1998, which has a 12 month time-limit, on the grounds that the court's and the local authority's actions were incompatible with a person's Convention right to a fair hearing under Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights (aka Rome Convention), enshrined within Schedule 1 (?) of the Act. As Bizzybob has said in the past, ECHR/HRA is quite a formidable piece of legislation as it reaches the parts other laws do not reach. My suspicion is that neither HMCTS or a local authority would want their duplicitous actions examined in minute detail in an open court or getting into the public domain. And there's no prizes for guessing what would happen if it did get into the public domain.
                            Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: CT and JSA

                              The European route it would seem may be the only one left to try. Disappointing news from the High Court today: Judge rejects bedroom tax unlawfully discriminates against disabled.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: CT and JSA

                                Originally posted by outlawlgo View Post
                                The European route it would seem may be the only one left to try. Disappointing news from the High Court today: Judge rejects bedroom tax unlawfully discriminates against disabled.
                                Depends on which judges were responsible for the ruling. The "baffling" comment is very telling. I have a feeling DWP's glee may be short-lived. The UN has slammed and, indeed, questioned the legality of the Bedroom Tax and both Canada and The Netherlands have voiced concerns as to human rights violations by the UK government against the British people. There is also talk of hauling the Cabbage Patch Doll and his cronies in front of the International Criminal Court.
                                Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

                                Comment

                                View our Terms and Conditions

                                LegalBeagles Group uses cookies to enhance your browsing experience and to create a secure and effective website. By using this website, you are consenting to such use.To find out more and learn how to manage cookies please read our Cookie and Privacy Policy.

                                If you would like to opt in, or out, of receiving news and marketing from LegalBeagles Group Ltd you can amend your settings at any time here.


                                If you would like to cancel your registration please Contact Us. We will delete your user details on request, however, any previously posted user content will remain on the site with your username removed and 'Guest' inserted.
                                Working...
                                X