Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

[Six]

Hi all.

Great forum. Nice to see a website dedicated to quality legal advice rather than the majority of tosh you read on the net.

My current situation is that I'm a self employed, ex serviceman, in receipt of Working Tax Credits and Disability Living Allowance for a long-standing mental health condition.

I have recently received a notice from Rossendales (supposedly hand delivered but actually delivered by the postman) stating that they plan on removing goods from my home for an alleged council tax debt from a property I lived at in 1996. It's not a massive amount (<£1000) but something that I could really do without as I'm on a low income, I have utilities/ bank debts, and struggle to make ends meet as it is.

I was only 16, at the time of the tenancy, and have read (from the CAB website) that under 18's cannot be held liable for council tax debt. I was on income support at the time as I was estranged from my parents, only just old enough to sign a tenancy and my father had only recently passed away leaving me to fend for myself.

At 17 I joined the British Army and served on operations, as a full time soldier, for a number of years. I vacated the property (paid for by housing benefit) and informed the relevant departments that I was going into the forces.

The council have informed me that they've also obtained a Liability Order against me, for another property, that my ex girlfriend resided at, from around the same time (1998 I think). Both of our names are on the bill yet I was away with the army then. I did not live there, nor did I have anything to do with the tenancy. Although, I did visit her when I was on leave. The only thing I can think of is she has given my details to them. I have no way of contacting her to check. The council have put the onus on me to prove that. Which is impossible considering it was 15 years ago!!

I have spoken to Liverpool City Council only to be met with the usual 'speak to the bailiffs, nothing we can do' robotic answer. They wouldn't agree that it was an administrative error on their part despite explaining my current and past circumstances. Rossendales are refusing to budge and are demanding I pay the amount in full or face the consequences of their actions. I'm expecting them to start banging on my door or remove my car which I couldn't work without. I rely on it as I'm on call around the north west at short notice.

As a result of my service I suffer with a diagnosed, debilitating, anxiety and panic disorder, chronic depression and agoraphobia. I've been receiving treatment, via my GP and a consultant psychologist, since 2008 and was seriously ill (almost sectioned) up until August 2013 when I returned to full time work after long periods of abscence and (pretty much) financial ruin.

I'm worried that the stress of it all is going to push me back over the edge and force me out of work again. I've been unable to sleep and it has affected my mental health to the extent that all of the hard work I've put in to get myself back on my feet is being undone and any hope, I had, evaporating as I type. I'm supposed to be eligible for council tax support but they haven't dealt with my application (again) leaving me in the shit. I'm so tired of trying to talk sense to these people!

I don't have any family, to speak of, and can't afford legal advice on my meagre income. The CAB are fully booked for weeks and I feel like I'm being destroyed for something I couldn't possibly be responsible for. I feel like a prisoner in my own home.

Liverpool City Council seem to be waging war against me. I've had £100's worth of parking fines over the last 18 months, for parking outside my own front door, because they made a mess of my permit application. I've only just managed to get those overturned, via the ombudsman, by proving they had made clerical errors and failed in their service delivery. I just haven't got the fight left in me to work the hours I do and fight another case like this!

Please help if you can. Is this really how they treat ex servicemen in this country!!!

[bizzybob]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Hi Six welcome to Legal Beagles, The team will no doubt come in soon, however as a starter and to get the ball rolling, what components and rate DLA is it you are on?

With regard tro the council tax first thing today, ask the council:
1: How many Liability Orders they hold for you
2: Which council Tax years they apply to
3: When were they obtained
4: What date they were sent to bailiffs

Once you know that Beagles can help you formulate a challenge especially if they apply to year (s) when you were under 18.

Now "my car which I couldn't work without" is it on finance (HP) of r a lease? Is it a Motability car? Could you get around on Public Transport? If not due to your condition it may be exempt, but tossendales will still try it on so hide it for now if you can

Above all try not to worry and stress yourself, as ther is another Ace up your sleve. Given your mental health issues in my opinion you fall under the Vulnerable category of the National Standards for enforcement agents. which renders bailiff action inappropriate. Are the council aware ofyour health issues? If not when you ask for the info I indicated above tell them and send a copy of any DLA award, and other proof say a letter from GP or heathcare professional helping you.

Also send proof to Tossendales, and inform them you are vulnerable, if they persist with enforcement they may well be in breach of Heath & Safety legislation if they carry on without undertaking a full risk Assessment into enforcving against you

Now below for your information is the Vulnerable Situations guidelines form the National Standards.

Vulnerable situations

 Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that
they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially
excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes
procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about
how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of
discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance
could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to
contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations
where there is evidence of a potential cause for concern. If
necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further
action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is
needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement
agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to
accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

 Enforcement agents must withdraw from domestic premises if the
only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18; they
can ask when the debtor will be home - if appropriate.

 Enforcement agents must withdraw without making enquiries if the
only persons present are children who appear to be under the age
of 12.

 Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have
arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services
when these are needed, and provide on request information in
large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.

 Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

 the elderly;
 people with a disability;
 the seriously ill;
 the recently bereaved;
 single parent families;
 pregnant women;
 unemployed people; and,
 those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or
reading English.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

When was the Liability Order obtained?

[Six]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

When was the Liability Order obtained?

For the 1996/7 tax year the LO was obtained in 1999. I have 4 LO's made against me and it appears that all were obtained within a couple of years of the bill being produced. I don't think I can use time regs here.

They have obtained an LO for my current address (mortgaged) despite being eligible for council tax benefit. I have made a number of complaints and they just keep sending me bills. I was assisted by a DWP disabled section in setting up as self employed earlier this year. As soon as I signed off JSA and ESA they hit me with bills from as far as 16 years ago. They refuse to enter into debate on the subject.

My car is owned outright. It's old and rubbish but is all I have. It's registered with HMRC as a business vehicle for tax purposes and is currently parked on a friends drive away from my residence. I'm scared to use it now.

My health: I was on medication, until recently, but found that drugs make me worse so have weaned myself off them and haven't needed to see my GP for a while. I did, however, have 18 months of intense psychotherapy with a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and have medical certificates from this year. The Council are well aware of my health issues following my challenge to a number of parking tickets outside my home address. I do not have a blue badge as I don't really need one. I tried my local Ward Councilor over the parking fines and rat infestation in the area and he couldn't help. I'd be reluctant to contact them again.

My DLA is middle rate care and lower rate mobility.

I'm about to call the council and see if they will accept some form of payment plan on alleged debt that I can't fight. However, I feel a little hard done to as this is clear kleptocracy. How I'm going to be able to afford any payments is beyond me. The utility companies are taking nearly £500 a month before I even pay my mortgage. If I couldn't eat in work I doubt I'd eat at all. My travelexpenses are high as most of my work is in the Manchester area and I live in central Liverpool. Due to the nature of my disability and distance public transport is out of the question and this could potentially ruin me.

Why do they think they can treat people like this and act with impunity? Has the UK really come to this? I thought the banks were held responsible for the national debt?

Apologies, I'm just venting. I'll try to stick to the facts!

Thank you!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

I tried my local Ward Councillor over the ... rat infestation in the area and he couldn't help.

From a sense of professional ethics?

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Hi Six,

This sounds like maladministration at the very least, though, I suspect the fact the Local Government Ombudsman (LGO) gave them a pasting over the traffic fines may have a bearing on their behaviour. That's what it looks like to me. If your ward councillor is as useful as a chocolate fireguard, you can always refer this matter to your MP. If you have not already done so, find out when their next surgery is and go along and speak to them about this.

[Six]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Professional ethics haha! We're talking about the city council here!

I've tried my MP. When I first moved into the area I had a lot of issues with fly tipping, rats getting into my house and dog faeces on the pavements. I've been ill the last few years but have never claimed benefits and have always worked. His office sent a few emails but nothing materialised. With council tax I fear I'm fighting a losing battle.

I was told by a friend (that works for the council enviromental services) that they don't care about the area as it's in such a bad state. They pretend to make the right noises but nothing ever gets done. I can't afford to move and I've been victimised as I do work and I'm not an untouchable heroin addict on benefits, like so many are in the area. I appear to be an easy target hence the £1000 worth of parking fines. Pay up and shut up etc.

I've been broken into, had my car damaged, had visitors cars broken into and generally had a hell of a time which all contributes to my poor state of health. I'm a fighter and want to work to have a better life but it seems like the system is against me.

They just want their money and they're not concerned if they destroy lives in the process. It makes me sick when I look at my medals and think of my mates that lost thier lives fighting for our (often corrupt) intersts abroad. If I had my time again I'd join the Sally Army and do some good in the world! :P

Great Britain hey!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Professional ethics haha! We're talking about the city council here!

That's right - a part-time rat doesn't wish to harm his full time brethren.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

I was told by a friend (that works for the council enviromental services) that they don't care about the area as it's in such a bad state. They pretend to make the right noises but nothing ever gets done.

They probably get grants of EU and/or taxpayers' money, which they spend on invaluable "fact finding missions" to such run-down places as Fiji or the Bahamas.

[Six]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

They probably get grants of EU and/or taxpayers' money, which they spend on invaluable "fact finding missions" to such run-down places as Fiji or the Bahamas.

Liverpool Football Club have a lot to answer for. They've been secretly buying property, via their agents, and leaving them unoccupied and in disrepair with the hope of redeveloping their stadium. Empty housing means the smack heads move in. The council lose out on revenue and start targeting motorists in the area. The local rag have reported on the issues but obviously, money talks and football has plenty.

Decent, hardworking people, like myself, get our homes devalued and undesirables coming into the area.

I'm hoping that when they do redevelop the cost of property in the area will go up, as witnessed at the Etihad Stadium development in Manchester, and I can finally get out of this hell hole.

That's if the council don't manage to finish me off beforehand - The bastards!

Viva la revolution!

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Liverpool Council have form for this. Ask them to provide proof of the LO's - it is for them to prove this and not the other way round? If they can provide them then ask what they have done to trace you in the intervening years & ask them what their write off policy is - this must be for the period of time involving the LO and not just the present time.

[enquirer]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

I was only 16, at the time of the tenancy, and have read (from the CAB website) that under 18's cannot be held liable for council tax debt.

Download and print. Attach to a letter to the CEO.

The council have informed me that they've also obtained a Liability Order against me, for another property, that my ex girlfriend resided at, from around the same time (1998 I think). Both of our names are on the bill yet I was away with the army then. I did not live there, nor did I have anything to do with the tenancy. Although, I did visit her when I was on leave. The only thing I can think of is she has given my details to them.

Fraud on her part, then.

Complete a Statutory Declaration and send that to the CEO too.

[Six]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Liverpool Council have form for this. Ask them to provide proof of the LO's - it is for them to prove this and not the other way round? If they can provide them then ask what they have done to trace you in the intervening years & ask them what their write off policy is - this must be for the period of time involving the LO and not just the present time.

I have requested they send me a copy of the LO's in question. They have responded.

We are unable to provide copies of Liability Orders, there is no requirement by law to issue a copy of this Order. All Liability Orders obtained for Council Tax are a matter for court records.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

I have requested they send me a copy of the LO's in question. They have responded.

We are unable to provide copies of Liability Orders, there is no requirement by law to issue a copy of this Order. All Liability Orders obtained for Council Tax are a matter for court records.

Total crap! They are obliged to provide you with a copy of the LO if you ask. In fact, read Regulation 45, Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and you will find a bailiff acting for them has to provide you with a copy on their first visit. If this has not been done, the law has not been complied with. The court is unlikely to have copies either as it is a known fact that council officers rubber-stamp the LOs and rarely, if ever, do magistrates hear applications for LOs. It is a process called Passing Off and is illegal, though, local authorities and the politicians hope you don't know that or find out about it. Er, I've got news for them because a lot of people have found out and know what is going on. Can you imagine what would happen if every Council Tax payer in England and Wales refused, en masse, to pay their Council Tax until central and local government stopped playing silly buggers? It would be interesting to see what the politicians made of it.

[Six]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order when under 18?

Can you imagine what would happen if every Council Tax payer in England and Wales refused, en masse, to pay their Council Tax until central and local government stopped playing silly buggers? It would be interesting to see what the politicians made of it.

Wouldn't it just! This excellent speech springs to mind.



First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--
….and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemöller


I have no issue with the collection of taxes to pay for essential services like rubbish collection, fire and police. What I do have an issue with is being made a criminal and having fake liability orders made against me which supposedly gives these meat heads authority to intimidate, damage and steal.

The system needs completely restructuring. If everyone refused to pay (I doubt it) we'd need a system in place to take over immediately. We'd be much better challanging and improving the current system en masse. Refusing to back down to these people is a good start and challenging every time. We are the people and we hold the power. Their numbers are small so it shouldn't take too much to make lasting change. But, we need to do it in numbers or it just gets worse for everyone.

Just my opinion but an important point I think.