Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already paid

[QueenAnne]

Hi,

In 2011 I fell behind Council Tax so last yr I agreed with the Council in question to pay in instalments.
I must have missed a last payment or something - interesting since they gave details until December and I have paid them all... but Bristow & Sutor, who were contacting in 2011 before I moved re a Liability Order, have found me and claimed on Liability Order #1 issued in 2011 that I have to pay £130. This was 1 June. They offered instalments but I paid off in full through their website (should've gone through the council's, silly me.)

So today I got a new letter from them B&S with a new case number, saying there is a new order issued against me on 4 June (e.g. 4 days after the first letter date with their instalments offer) and this time I must immediately pay £250 to them NOT THE COUNCIL (they write this multiple times and in capitals.)

1. I lived in there only in 2011, and fell back on payments. There are no separate unpaid CT, everywhere else I am OK and paid. So it must refer to the SAME amount...
2. I paid the £130 within the time they wrote.
3. The first letter dates 1 June, the second letter says a Liability order issued on 4 June. And the second letter dates 21 June, I made full payment of £130 to them on 14 June, accounted on 17 June - both before 2nd letter.

Question:
- can they make an instalments offer AND during the time of the instalments also issue a liability order?
- can I legally have two liability orders for the same debt?
- so what could have happened to the amount I have paid then?

Any thoughts? Thank you!

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Sounds very much like a different Liability Order. You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:
1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you
2 - the dates they were obtained
3 - the addresses they were for
4 - the period of time each covers
5 - how much each one was for
6 - how much is still outstanding
7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement
8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

OK I will do this tomorrow,
In the meantime, what I know is this:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you: 2
2 - the dates they were obtained: one in 2011, and one on 4 June 2013
3 - the addresses they were for: the same for both
4 - the period of time each covers: the same for both
5 - how much each one was for: the 2011 one was about £700-800 - I then had this amended and agreed on instalments with council.
6 - how much is still outstanding: to my counting, it was zero by the end of last year (to the first one) then B&S wrote so I thought I missed a payment, them referring to the old order, so I paid it esp as the amount was about 1 months payment.
7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement: IDK yet, will ask - but the second order is just 20 days old according to the B&S letter
8 - the dates & amounts of any payments: I have these as I pay by bank transfer and DD except the only payment on 14 June to B&S about which I have email. I will ask them to provide theirs to see if they got the moneys.

So can I have multiple orders concerning the exact same debt? It's not like more debt occured since - I don't live at that address, not in the same city even. Seems they issue new orders for the same debt - as if I didn't pay, and when it was under offer - and they want me to pay the same debt multiple times??

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Personally, I would be VERY wary of what Bristow & Sutor are both demanding and stating in their correspondence. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that B & S are pulling a fast one. You need to get EVERYTHING confirmed IN WRITING by the local authority involved and make sure it is a senior manager who signs the letter. If the LO has been obtained in error by the local authority, B & S need to wind their necks back in or their bullying could backfire on them.

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

I am emailing the Council in question right now - in response to the original agreement correspondence, and give them the dates of these letters and the payment plus ask for the info above.
Thank you!

[Inca]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Hi QA,
I can't add anything more to what the guys have advised except to say you MUST ask the questions Ploddertom has quoted,the councils answers may well vary from yours (probably will lol)
The Devil is in the detail...somewhere between you,the council and BillyBailiff will be the answer,,hopefully that you are right and the Bailiff is,,again,wrong.Oh,,and get EVERYTHING in writing..paper trail.
Good Luck

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Next to find out what the Bailiffs are up to send off for a breakdown of the fees they are charging. It will be interesting to see if their figures and the Councils match - in many cases they do not. This is best sent initially by email - enquiries@bristowsutor.co.uk - followed by a copy in the post. Send Letter 1 from http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Thanks, I send this now
PS - wrote to the council, gave them the dates, References amounts transaction ID from 17 June and asked them to answer the questions (all 8) - no response yet.

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

An update,
Bristow & Sutor responded with noting the periods for the two orders (according to them it's from the council) and the new one is for a period when I was paying CT with DD monthly and on time
Apart from that, they write that they occured no extra charges, no bailiff attended etc. That is because when they first wrote to me they used my old address and I moved. Then I contacted the Council in question to arrange payments of the amount in arrears without B&S actually being in touch. B&S just found out my current address through - I suppose - and enquiry into my credit report, cos on May 22 a Debt Collector enquiry is logged w Equifax, and their letter came after that.

The Council is silent, I chased them this morning and will chase them tomorrow, with this "new info" in addition, that apparently they issued a liability order in error when there was no debt ?!

PS wrote to B&S that they should now park themselves because they can't help and Council has to sort this with me first.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Basically, if an LO has been obtained in error, it raises questions as to its validity. I would get a solicitor involved asap as local authorities seem to respond more positively once they realise they are not going to walk all over you. You should discuss whether there are grounds for seeking damages from the local authority for going into court, claiming you owed them money when, in fact, you owed them nothing. You should also discus redress for any adverse effects on or entries on your credit file, brought about as a result of the local authority's actions.

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

Basically, if an LO has been obtained in error, it raises questions as to its validity. I would get a solicitor involved asap as local authorities seem to respond more positively once they realise they are not going to walk all over you. You should discuss whether there are grounds for seeking damages from the local authority for going into court, claiming you owed them money when, in fact, you owed them nothing. You should also discus redress for any adverse effects on or entries on your credit file, brought about as a result of the local authority's actions.

I sent my last message to them this morning, before further actions. All I noted was
- I advised B&S about the account in dispute and to cease collection activities
- Asked for the same 8 questions once more (I haven't told them what B&S supplied me with)
- Advised that I interacted on the same address with them previously re the same account (scheduling the installments last yr) and they are obliged to provide me with sufficient information about legal actions against me. Noted it's not a SAR so does not incur a fee.

There's no reporting from the councils or B&S on my credit reports so far. As I understand, if I defaulted B&S can report the default up to 6 months after I paid it off? Do I actually need to default with B&S e.g being in arrears or nonpayment of 180 days to B&S, and not the council?

I'm not sure tho if I defaulted even, they do confirm they never sent a bailiff to me. Basically they confirm they made an offer and I paid off in whole, not taking their offer, and that they incurred no charges in this case. The "default" is a bit confusing to me, sorry

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

To update:
The council replied tonight, these were indeed for the same period and address and it has been corrected plus a £99 fee for the second order waived. They issued the first order in 2011, passed to bailiffs who in Feb 2012 passed back to council. Then it went again to Bailiffs when I missed a payment with a new order issued - this during me paying.
The bailiff saying the council confirmed the previous periods was an obvious lie (I guess because the first order missed those 2,5 months from my time on the address in question, the bailiff thought to use it for coverage.)

I haven't heard from my dear bailiffs yet, but the Council confirmed they are yet to receive a payment that I made almost a month ago to these bailiffs.

I consider it closed to be honest (the £99 fee was yet to be paid so now we are even.)

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

If it appears evident that B & S has committed Fraud, I would be inclined to work out how much. If B & S have not yet handed a payment you have made to them to the council, this needs to be investigated. Keep in touch with the council on this matter and, if necessary, offer to make statement to the police if B & S continue to fail to pass the payment to the council. The response you receive from the council should give you a pretty good indication as to whether they are complicit in any fraudulent behaviour with B & S.

[QueenAnne]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

I note you are currently paying the Bailiffs directly and can see you made a payment of £130.94 on 17^th June 2013. This has yet to be sent to X Council.

On review of your account, as two Summonses were issued on for the same Council Tax period. Although X Council are able to this, on the grounds of Customer Care I have withdrawn the £99.00 costs.

Case Reference XXXXX has been paid in full to the Bailiffs, as advised above we have yet to receive this money.

This is only when they mention the bailiffs, the rest is really my account history of payments which has made all clear (tbh it's very well organised and thorough, and they also apologised for the delay etc....)

It's that B&S has to send them their money.

[Fetherston]

Re: Council Tax - Bristow & Sutor: Two Liability Orders for the same amount, already

The slight problem with asking questions is that you might end up like me - Warwick District Council banned me from contacting them for asking too many questions!!