Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

[IanM]

Can someone please advise me as to how i can obtain information from my local council with regards to my council tax bills.

I moved from a rented house in to a house i bought half way through the year yet have had to pay the full years council tax on both properties for the same year.

When i refused to pay any further CT until they amended the bill taking into account the mistake they had made they shut up shop and would not provide any information because i was refusing to pay anything.

They have since embarked on what feels like a personal vendetta ever since by obtaining liability orders and sending bailiffs every other week for almost 2 years while still refusing to provide any info.

When the bailiffs failed to make us pay anything after over 50 visits, despite threatening most times to return within 7 days and enter the property whether we were there or not, the council placed attachment of earnings on my wife's wages through her employer while still refusing to justify their claims or provide us with any of the paperwork we requested from them.

After having a third attachment of earnings order placed on my wife's wage, taking almost 15-17% of her monthly earnings despite their own literature stating they could only take 7% of a wage below £900, i started to put together all the paperwork and discovered that we had 4 different account numbers for our council tax while everyone else we know has only 1 account number.

I have asked them, via a local Councillor, why we have 4 different account numbers and they have replied that we only have 2 account numbers, 1 for each property, yet, according to the liability orders, we still owe the same amount as if we had the 4 account numbers.

I accused the council of committing some kind of fraud but instead of producing the paperwork to prove we owed the money they say we owe they have continuously refused to provide anything and continued to harass us for further payments.

After making a comment about council corruption on a local papers forum I have now received a summons for non-payment of this years council tax, within 24hrs of posting my comment, and i intend to go to court to settle this dispute once and for all but need the paperwork from them to mount a proper defense in court. If they produce all the paperwork and it turns out the mistake is mine then i will pay what i owe but with them continuously refusing to provide all the paperwork regarding the 4 account numbers i believe the mistake is theirs and we do not owe what they say we do.

If they refuse again to provide me with any paperwork before i go to court can i ask the magistrate to adjourn the hearing on the grounds we believe we have overpaid in a previous year and are waiting for the council to prove otherwise?

Thanks,
IanM

[TUTTSI]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Hi Ian

This is not my area of expertese but have a good read of the Bailiff section as you may find some resource information that may be helpful to you. Labman who is our resident expert will be along soon.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Bailiff-Issues

[cards down]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Hi Ian

what you need to do is send a Subject Access Request to your local Council. A template that can be edited can be found here http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters If you edit and repost without your personal details then the knowledgeable people here will fine tune it for you. Personally I'd be tempted to send one to the Bailiff company at the same time. A Subject Access Request requires a fee of £10 for each one made.

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

News about this coming later tonight!

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Council are guilty of attempting to obtain money by deception.

[[Council Tax attachment of earnings order,,,,date of issue:-18th May 2012

On Wednesday 18th June 2008 the East Lancashire Magistrates Court made a liability order under regulation 34 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 against the person named above in respect of an amount of which £791.23 is outstanding at the date of making this order.]]

This attachment of earnings order has been forwarded to my wife's employer instructing them to deduct £791.23 from her wages until the total amount is paid in full. This is in relation to the bill for 1st April 2008 to 31st March 2009.

After asking a local councillor to find out why we had 4 different account numbers we were sent a letter from the council on 30th November 2011 and it states,,, account number: xxxxxxx £1113.05 owing from 15th Sept 07 to 31st March 2010. The debt is split as follows:-
2008 £305.79
2009 £807.26

So there we have it, in black and white from the council themselves, for 2008 we owe £305.79 and not the £791.23 that they are now claiming under the attachment of earnings order so my accusations that someone at the council is corrupt are completely true. If i did not question them the way i have done they would have claimed £485.44 more than they are entitled to collect.

I haven't yet worked out exactly how much we have paid over the last few years in cash payments(all receipts kept) at the town hall or from the 2/3 attachment of earnings orders(all payments on wage slips) they've placed on my wife's wages but i will be working it out over the weekend and presenting my findings to the magistrates court when i answer the latest summons and asking for an investigation of the council as to where the money paid on the other 2 account numbers has disappeared to, looks like someone at the council is on the fiddle.

Always keep all your paperwork and never be afraid of questioning something if you do not agree or understand what they are telling you!

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

There appears to be very strong evidence of fraud on the council's part, not to mention abuses of the legal process. I would be inclined to report this matter to the police and be prepared to contact the Audit Commission and the Local Government Ombudsman as well.

The Audit Commission's website is at www.audit-commission.gov.uk
The LGO's website is at www.lgo.org.uk

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

You have to work out how each is made up as the Council year runs 1 April - 31 March the following year. Given the dates you have I would guess that there have been outstanding amounts for:
15 Sept 2007 - 31 March 2008
1 April 2008 - 31 March 2009
1 April 2009 - 31 March 2010
You have what looks to be on the face of it 2.5 years worth of CT arrears. On top of this they will also have added Court & Liability Order costs - guess £100 for each year/part year = £300.

Given the intransigence of the Council I wonder if they have followed the Regulations correctly or just used the steamroller approach. You need to speak to someone at the Council or get a representative to call and ask the following questions:
1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you
2 - the dates they were obtained
3 - the addresses they were for
4 - the period of time each covers
5 - how much each one was for
6 - how much is still outstanding
7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement
8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

When consideration is given as to whether a Liability Order is granted or not then all that is considered is whether or not you owe the money, the reasons for refusal of the LO are very narrow and the magistrates cannot deviate from this. It is basically a rubber stamping exercise. Having a dispute with the Council is insufficient to not paying and you will be found liable. If they refuse to cooperate with you then as has been suggested by others submit a SAR on the Council - some even do them free of charge - the Council then have 40 days in which to comply - this is a legal requirement.

Is it also possible your Council has outsourced all its admin & revenue functions to the likes of Capita, if so then when you ring you are not talking to an actual Council employee and those of Capita are usually not very helpful, mainly because they also happen to own 2 Bailiff companies.

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Thanks Bluebottle. I will definitely look into reporting them to the Audit Commission and the LGO but i will have to think about going to the police, they wouldn't believe my solicitor had committed fraud when i went to them with 700+ pages of paperwork for 2 mortgages that didn't exist. Took them 18 months to tell me to go to the LCS as, where solicitors are concerned they only respond to allegations brought to them by the SRA not general members of the public.

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Thanks ploddertom, i will write and ask them the questions you have mentioned but there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration.

I have in front of me 2 council tax bills, sent to me at my current address, both have the same account number as the liability order and tally's with the account number on the aforementioned letter from the council with the debt of £305.79(2008-2009). One bill has both my wife's and my name on the top but the other has a badly spelt version of my name yet both have the same acc.no as the LO for 2008.

1st bill says:--- charge for period: 21-july-2007 to 31-march-2008 === £641.03
2nd bill says:--- charge for period: 15-sept-2007 to 31-march-2008 === £500.26

Total due (but outstanding) for that year === £1141.29

On top of that i have a payment card from the council that is machine stamped every time a cash payment is made. Although it has a different account number it states the following:

Balance as at 30-06-07 (which must be the april 2007 to march 2008 bal) = £975.07 with 1st payment of £100.00 to be made by 30-06-07, then monthly payments of 125.01 up to the 30-01-08.

Payments recorded:-

28-06-07 £110.00
05-07-07 £ 41.26
10-07-07 £ 41.25
18-07-07 £ 41.25
26-07-07 £ 41.25
02-08-07 £ 41.26
08-08-07 £ 41.25
15-08-07 £ 41.25
24-08-07 £ 41.25
31-08-07 £ 41.26
07-09-07 £ 41.26
13-09-07 £ 41.25

Total £ 563.83 paid until they sent us the bill on the 15th sept 2007 which is when we started asking questions about our CT bills because the £563.83 was allocated to an account that doesn't match the account number on the bills they sent us as stated above.

So for 2007-2008 the council wanted me to pay a total of £1765.12 which is almost double the usual CT which is why i questioned them and refused to pay anything further until they answered.

It has taken almost 5 years to get them to put a foot wrong by sending me answers in a letter and then months later sending an attachment of earnings order that doesn't tally with what they have already told me in that letter.

The battle will continue until someone at the council sits down and shows me all the paperwork to prove i owe what they say i still owe!

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Without knowing what you have actually got it is quite hard to comment and so can only make assumptions on what should have happened. You said originally you moved from a rented property into a one you purchased part way through the year, I assume this was in the financial year 2007-2008.

When you moved out of your rented property did you inform the Council you were moving? Were you up to date with CT when you moved out?
When you moved into your purchased property did you also inform them of the date you moved in?
Was there a gap between the dates?
Are the properties both within the same Council area?

The 2 bills you have for 2007-2008, normally I would see this is OK as one should supersede the other as an adjustment appears to be made which results in another bill being sent. The Council cannot however have 2 bills for one property. A CT bill should normally have:
a - a property ref no - never changes
b - an account no - never changes
c - a ref no - should change on a yearly basis to signify which year any payments should be allocated to

The payment card, do you know which property it relates to? The payments you have made on this card could be seen to be in arrears. CT is due on 1 April each year, as a dispensation the Council will allow you to pay in instalments - normally on the 1st of each month over a 10 month period. If you move then they can adjust the instalments accordingly. Paying in weekly instalments throws many Council computers into chaos as they are not programmed to allow this.

If & when you speak to the Council you do not want the person who sits at the desk or answers the phone, you need someone more senior. It does sound as if someone has made a balls up of it all but like any Council they will not readily admit to it and even if they do will try to blame it all on you anyway. It sounds as if your Councillor is asking questions but doing only the bare minimum, I would be tempted to go to the Leader of the Council and try him/her instead.

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

The payment card covers the year 2007-2008 and was being paid regularly on the 1st house but had a different account number.

We then moved and were sent a bill with a new account number saying we still owed money for 2007-08 but when i questioned the new bill they wouldn't or couldn't explain why we were expected to pay the £641.26 when we had already paid over £500 already.

The 2nd bill for £500+ had a variant of my name yet the same account number and somewhere down the line these outstanding amounts have made up the total of the amount outstanding on the account as a whole and has been paid off by any payment to the account being allocated to the specific account number. Both totals were added but the bills were in different names. Because the account that was paid on the payment card no longer exists the payments have not been allocated to the new account number.

I still have some paperwork to go through to work out how much has been paid to them via the attachment of earnings orders, this may be a bit complicated as they had 3 attachments being paid at the same time on occasion and i'm not sure if they are allowed to collect 3 payments at the same time or not, but i will be checking the account numbers on the liability orders to check they aren't using an order with an account number that doesn't exist yet paying it off one of the other accounts that does exist.

The 2 account numbers that they say do exist are for the same property we live in now so it doesn't make sense and nobody at the council will explain why we have 2 different account numbers for the same house.

I will get to the bottom of it all and whether we do owe any money or not does not give them the right to do what they have done to us, they are supposed to work for us yet as soon as you question them they can ignore, harass and intimidate you into paying something without a clear reason as to why you owe the money.

If they have not done anything wrong, then why are they using a liability order that was issued in 2008 to claim more money than they are entitled to collect in respect of the specific debt that they have told us recently is slightly under half of what is on the liability order they have used to obtain an attachment of earnings order?

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Thanks Bluebottle. I will definitely look into reporting them to the Audit Commission and the LGO but i will have to think about going to the police, they wouldn't believe my solicitor had committed fraud when i went to them with 700+ pages of paperwork for 2 mortgages that didn't exist. Took them 18 months to tell me to go to the LCS as, where solicitors are concerned they only respond to allegations brought to them by the SRA not general members of the public.

What you were told by the police is correct. Most complaints about dodgy solicitors come to the police via the SRA's Fraud Intelligence Unit. It may seem a roundabout sort of way to do things, but it's the best way they have found of dealing with the problem. If the Audit Commission get involved, it will be the District Auditor who oversees any investigation as they are responsible for local authorities. Where the LGO is concerned, you will need to comply with their complaints criteria before they will accept your complaint for investigation. As long as you comply with what they ask of you, your complaint stands a better chance of being investigated.

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

What you were told by the police is correct. Most complaints about dodgy solicitors come to the police via the SRA's Fraud Intelligence Unit. It may seem a roundabout sort of way to do things, but it's the best way they have found of dealing with the problem. If the Audit Commission get involved, it will be the District Auditor who oversees any investigation as they are responsible for local authorities. Where the LGO is concerned, you will need to comply with their complaints criteria before they will accept your complaint for investigation. As long as you comply with what they ask of you, your complaint stands a better chance of being investigated.

Thanks BB, the only issue i had with the police is that it took them over a year to tell me to go to the SRA and make my complaint, when i first went to the police all they did was have me sign letters of authority so they could obtain my bank statements etc. to see if i had had the money myself, like i would even be at the police station if i had received the money myself!

Went to the LCS with all my papers, they passed it to the SRA, still waiting!

[IanM]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

What you were told by the police is correct. Most complaints about dodgy solicitors come to the police via the SRA's Fraud Intelligence Unit. It may seem a roundabout sort of way to do things, but it's the best way they have found of dealing with the problem. If the Audit Commission get involved, it will be the District Auditor who oversees any investigation as they are responsible for local authorities. Where the LGO is concerned, you will need to comply with their complaints criteria before they will accept your complaint for investigation. As long as you comply with what they ask of you, your complaint stands a better chance of being investigated.

Just been looking at a letter from the council dated 13th December 2010, and have discovered more discrepancies with what they have told me then to what they have told me in a letter dated 30th Nov 2011, on the 13th Dec 2010 letter it states ,

1. " In relation to account.no.2, the liability for the current financial year (2010-2011) is £993.84. A summons was issued on the 24th May 2010 incurring costs of £55. A liability order form requesting your details was issued to you on the 17th June 2010, this was returned with an offer of payment that was deemed unacceptable and was not accepted. As such your account was referred to Rossendales Bailiffs on the 12th July 2010 to collect £1048.84".

2. An attachment of earnings order was issued to your(my wife's) employer for £1020.14 on the 12th July 2010 for the CT relating to account.no.1 for the financial year 2009-10. I can confirm we have received £212.88 with regards to the arrears, leaving a balance of £807.26.""(as at 13th DEC 2010)

In point 1, they say account no1 has been referred to the bailiffs on the 12th July 2010 for 2010-11, while in point 2, they say they have sent an attachment of earnings order to my wife's employer in relation to account.no.2 on the 12th July 2010 with any payments received to be allocated to account no.2 for the year 2009-10.

My point and questions, if they submitted an attachment of earnings order on the 12th July 2010 for the year 2009-10, then i ask,
1. When was this order issued?

Am i right in assuming they would have obtained the liability order for 2009-10 in 2009?

2. If so, why did they wait until 2010 to submit it to the employer?
3. If an attachment of earnings is sent to the employer would it be right to assume that all monies owed on the order would have to be paid before the attachment is removed?
4.If they had an attachment of earnings orders for the year 2009-10 and 2010-2011 then why did they feel the need to send the bailiffs at all?
5. Why not just go direct to the employer?
6. Or, is this how they are scamming people, withholding attachment of earnings orders for 12 months while they line the pockets of the bailiffs firms?

If anyone can answer those questions, especially question 3, i will have more news later, all this from just 2 letters from the council, LOL!

Many thanks for your patience and advice, i will eventually work out the best way to make my complaint to the Audit Commision and the LGO.

[cards down]

Re: Council Tax dispute and multiple accounts!

Have you sent them a Subject Access Request yet?