Council Liabibilty order

[hantsman]

If no such order actually exsists on paper can a certificated bayliff come round and try to enforce it?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

If no such order actually exsists on paper can a certificated bayliff come round and try to enforce it?

Eh?

Is this one of those daft "freeman on the land" questions, where the alleged debtor comes up with some silly drivel about their name being "a legal fiction"?

Or is there some real doubt about whether a liability order was granted?

Has the person in question paid their tax, or not?

[hantsman]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

Eh?

Is this one of those daft "freeman on the land" questions, where the alleged debtor comes up with some silly drivel about their name being "a legal fiction"?

Or is there some real doubt about whether a liability order was granted?

Has the person in question paid their tax, or not?

You seem to be very well named :tinysmile_aha_t:

The liability order has been obtained, but the council have confirmed there is no true paper hard copy. So I assume the Bayliff wont have a copy when they come round. So the same question.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

You seem to be very well named :tinysmile_aha_t:

I chose my sobriquet with that in mind.

The liability order has been obtained, but the council have confirmed there is no true paper hard copy. So I assume the Bayliff wont have a copy when they come round. So the same question.

It still seems a silly question, although it is doubtless a sensible question about a very silly situation.

If no "true paper hard copy" exists, how was the alleged debtor acquainted with the fact that the LO had been granted?

Come to that, why does no "true paper hard copy" exist?

[labman]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

It's a common issue with multiple grantings of LO's in a mass council hearing. Yes they can still enforce, though if you were willing to risk a lot of money forcing the issue, you may or may not (probably may not) get somewhere. personally I'd pay and not risk fighting anything.

[charitynjw]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

Imho, anyone who is thinking of attempting to try a 'legal fiction'/maritime law-type argument should first consult Ms Watson.
Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council v Watson [2011] EWHC 2376 (Fam) (01 September 2011)
http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/09...court-privacy/

[polo126]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

Regarding council liability orders surely the CPR rules should still apply to any civil case from the 26th April 2011, if they do not, something is very wrong, i can find nothing to say that they should not.

[labman]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

The council will be able to provide sufficient proof for a Court of Law that the LO was granted. What they may not be able to produce is the Court Seal. With so many cases being heard in one morning or afternoon, it would not be feasible.

Now one can argue this is wrong and against due process till one is blue in the face, but try persuading the court.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

The council will be able to provide sufficient proof for a Court of Law that the LO was granted. What they may not be able to produce is the Court Seal. With so many cases being heard in one morning or afternoon, it would not be feasible.

Now one can argue this is wrong and against due process till one is blue in the face, but try persuading the court.

I agree! The Courts don't have the facilities or resources to carry out the administrative functions related to ensuring that these documents are produced and served correctly.

Given that the number of these liability order applications run into several hundred or even thousand at any given hearing, it indicates, regardless of whether or not it is lawful, that the process exploited by councils and Magistrates' courts is carried out in a production line manner and devised to immorally profit hugely from residents who are mostly caught-out over late Council Tax payments.

[polo126]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

However it is not really our problem if the courts cannot cope, they have ammended the CPR's to allow any tom dick or harry to produce the paper work (removing this element of the work) but it still has to be sealed (by wet ink or facsimille)and delivered. These rules were designed to make access to justice fair'er and easier to understand for those not legally trained. Turning the councils into there own courts without standing up to it will surely perpetuate an errosion of what ever civil liberties we may left.

[labman]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

In theory I agree with you enitirely. However, in the real world things are as they are. Yes, it is wrong that a piece of paper with the court seal cannot be produced, but however much anyone stands up to it, it will never be changed short of literally a civil uprising.

A stance made by a few people is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, and only serves to waste their effort and time. I wouldn't say this about everything, but on this particular issue I can see little point in arguing against it.

It makes for interesting theoretical debate I guess, but that is all it will ever be - theoretical.

[polo126]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

Civil uprising! peaceful of course

[A54]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

I'm in the unfortunate position which means I'm going to have to test this point in court.

there are too many rules and regulations that seem to be broken by the LA's in this method of obtaining Liability Orders, some of them strike at the foundation of what the justice system is built on.

An order does not necessarily have to have a court seal but it must be verifiable by the issuing court.

Every order MUST have the name of the judge who made the order, an illegible signature means nothing, anonymous orders are unlawful.

This line of defense does not mean I stand against council tax, I stand for council tax!

I could not imagine the chaos we would all be in without the benefits LA's actually bring to the areas we live in.

By their very nature (councils) are bound to have elements of corruption and wrong doing but that is because they're run by people like us, most of us are probably (hopefully!) decent upstanding citizens but as in any cross section of society across the world there are bound to be a few bad apples or those whose power goes to their heads.

Where we come across such cases I think it'd wrong to simply accept the wrongdoing, as the saying goes, something like if you don't do anything about it, your children will be next.

Treat your neighbour in the same way you would like to be treated, its the golden law that all justice is based on.

The judicial process is there for a reason, no one especially a judge should accept a deviation of the rules in any circumstance.

Its unfortunate that LA's feel they don't have the time to obtain individual LO's but the costs they add per LO they obtain (in my case around £95 each) is higher than what it costs for me to make an application in court (£45?) for an order, and that involves a hearing with a judge that possibly results with a legit order bearing a seal.

Justice?

[miliitant]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

what people fail to remember is that the debtor has the chance to go infront of the magistrate and oppose the liability order application on the day of the summons. the council has to tell you when the application will be read before the court in advance.

the thing i must agree on is that it must be a judge who signs the applications for liability orders, not the court or council clerk via a rubber stamp

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Liabibilty order

The best thing to do is write to the Court Manager at the Magistrates Court the LA claim they obtained the LO from. If the Court Manager replies that they have no record of an LO being issued against you and they can find no record of an LO being issued against you by any other Magistrates Court, a certificated bailiff, or any other bailiff for that matter, has no lawful authority to act and is open to prosecution as a result if they attempt to enforce any CT arrears. The LA is also liable to legal action if it has not been granted an LO. I am currently dealing with a case where an LA has not obtained an LO.