CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

[SarahConnor]

I have a (mortgaged) freehold property in which I have been living in for over a decade. During that period I have been keeping all CT bills paid and my CT account up-to-date. Since July last year I am on CT benefit as I am currently unemployed (I also get JSA from that date). The Council recently issued my 2011/2012 statement confirming that I am still on CT benefit and do not have anything to pay.

About 8 months ago, around October 2010, I've received a strange "reminder", which, even though was addressed to myself at my property address, listed CT "liabilities" going back from 2009 and 2010 at some different address I have never heard of (the address mentioned was not even in the same town, though was still within the Council boundaries)!

Deeply upset by this I have instantly submitted a DPA request to see where this information was coming from, why is this property address linked to my name, who did this and why is it that the Council suddenly demands payment from me for that address.

In the meantime I received another reminder from the Council, stating that since I have not made any steps to "pay the outstanding overdue instalments" the whole amount is now due (over 600 quid).

When I received the Council's response to my DPA request, there was absolutely nothing there which linked me to that address at all!

Since there wasn't a list of documents sent enclosed with their response I have prepared such a list of all documents received and asked the Council (the Data Protection Officer) to confirm this is all the information they hold on me. I also asked them if there is anything else they wish to add, which wasn't enclosed in the original bundle I received from them to feel free and enclose it.

After I have not received a response for over 2 months (in the meantime the reminders for the other property stopped!) I had to write to one of the Councillors as well as the CEO of the Council to complain that despite my repeated requests for an answer, these were completely ignored by the Data Protection Officer. After a bit of going forwards-and-backwards with them, my complaint was eventually upheld and I have received a confirmation that the data the Council sent me a while ago was everything they hold on me.

This was about a month ago (it took the Council more than 4 months to answer/confirm this!).

I was just about to write to the Data Protection Officer of the Council to ask for an explanation as to how come they have sent me these threatening letters demanding payment when they have no record of any personal data or any sort of link which exists between myself and this other address (my other intention was to alert the Data Commissioner if I wasn't happy with the response received by the Council) when, out of the blue, last week I have received a CT summons from "the Magistrates" asking me to appear in court in about 10 days time as I haven't paid any council tax for more than a year on that other address, as well as charging me about £75 additional (court) costs.

Yesterday I paid a visit to the court and the clerk explained that in order for such summons to be issued the Council needs to make a "declaration" and on that basis the justice clerk issues the summons.

I have a copy of the Council's declaration and in it states that despite attempts by them to recover the money they were unable to do so and also state that I am the person liable for these money at that (other) address I've never heard of.

After I took a copy of the declaration I noticed that at the bottom of it the Council lists a bunch of documents, which I presumed (wrongly, as it turned out!) were shown/enclosed to the justice clerk before issuing the summons. The documents consisted of CT bills going from 2002 (though there was no mention of which property they relate to!), so today I paid the Magistrates another visit with the intention to find out if I could get hold of, or make a copy of, these documents.

As it turned out, the justice clerk did not have these documents as the Council makes the declaration and lists the documents *they have* and then the justice clerk just gives them a permission (over email!) and then the Council issues the summons!

I could not believe what I was hearing! The Council issuing its own court summons!

I asked the clerk whether the Council supply their own judge on the date of the hearing as well, but, fortunately, I was told that wasn't the case (thank god for that - I was beginning to think I was in some kangaroo court in Texas!).

In the meantime, I did a bit of researching and found out that the address listed on all reminders as well as the summons itself is a bogus address - this address does not appear on the Royal Mail database as well as on any Land Registry records!

It has a house number 22B, but there is no such address! The closest to that (with the same post code) is house number 22 and its owner is listed on the Land Registry records as somebody else (not me, obviously).

So, here is what I am hoping to find out and need some help with:

My intention is to:

1. Appear in court on the date and defeat the Council as it is plainly obvious (to me anyway) that I have nothing whatsoever to do with the property listed in the summons (the one with the mickey-mouse address on it) and I am not liable for paying that CT.

2. Gather and collect all information with regards to what documents the Council used/presented/have in connection with that other property so that it is easier then to achieve my next aim (3 below).

3. Submit a (counter) claim for harassment and pursue the Council for the damages they caused me throughout this whole saga as well as taking matters to the Data Protection Commissioner, which I am sure will be well-chuffed to hear my story.


What I'd like to know and need a bit of help is:

1. With regards to the first aim above: If I present a copy of 1) my up-to-date CT statement that I am not liable for CT, 2) Land Registry record (as well as Royal Mail printout) showing that this mickey-mouse address does not really exists and I am not the owner of that property listed there anyway, and 3) present CT statements for my own property possibly going back at least 3 years stating that I have been paying CT regularly - would that be enough to satisfy the judge that the Council claim is completely baseless? What else can I do in that respect?

2. With regards to aim 2 above: - My intention is to ask for these documents when I appear in court in front of the judge so the Council are shown for what they truly are - a bunch of incompetent idiots, so that I have a good and solid position to then achieve my 3rd aim and bring my own (counter) claim against them - would it be possible and are the Council legally obliged to provide me with these documents? If the judge then issues his verdict and then dismisses their claim I could then use this to strengthen my case.

3. To achieve my 3rd aim what do I have to do after the Council claim is defeated - I know I need to submit a form and pay a fee in the small-claims court, but I am not sure if I have to follow this same process. Another thing - given the above circumstances, how much could I claim for?

I am hoping that somebody experienced would be able to help me out there with my queries - many thanks in advance!

[CleverClogs]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

Has your local Council Tax been contracted out to Crapita?

[SarahConnor]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

Not that I know of no.

[WendyB]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

You need to point out to the Judge at the hearing that the Council have told you, writing, that they do not hold any documentation that links you to that address, which is completely the opposite to what they have said in their declaration to the Court.

Take any other documentation you can find, as proof that the address does not seem to exisit, and if it does, it certainly isn't owned by you according to the land registry.

Have you checked the Electoral Register to see if the address exists on there, and if so, who is registered as living there?

[SarahConnor]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

You need to point out to the Judge at the hearing that the Council have told you, writing, that they do not hold any documentation that links you to that address, which is completely the opposite to what they have said in their declaration to the Court.

Take any other documentation you can find, as proof that the address does not seem to exisit, and if it does, it certainly isn't owned by you according to the land registry.

I have, so far, prepared 1) my own CT statements for as far as I could find (stretching more than 3 years), 2) a list with the DPA documents I received from the Council (the list I prepared and sent to the Council), the letter from their DPO confirming that list, 3) web page printout from the Royal Mail web site pointing out ALL the addresses (well, at least the ones I am interested in) that exist with that post code, 4) a copy of the title as registered with the Land Registry (I had to pay 4 quid for that + the receipt for that payment). Would that be enough though?

Have you checked the Electoral Register to see if the address exists on there, and if so, who is registered as living there?

Good idea, never thought of that - will do that tomorrow! I presume I could get a printout of that as well.

[WendyB]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

Well you seem to be doing really well, only thing to do now is turn up for the hearing and argue your case, it seems to me.

[CleverClogs]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

You could also check the banding of that property, via the Valuation Office website.

You might have been asked to pay too much.

[WendyB]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

.

You might have been asked to pay too much.

As Sarah has no connections or liability whatsoever for the property, I'd say that's blindingly obvious.

[CleverClogs]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

You could also check the banding of that property, via the Valuation Office website.

You might have been asked to pay too much.

As Sarah has no connections or liability whatsoever for the property, I'd say that's blindingly obvious.

My goodness, aren't we a bit tetchy?

Entering the postcode for "the house that doesn't exist" into that website should bring up more evidence regarding the council's absurd claim.

I also wonder how many people are eligible to vote who claim to live there.

[WendyB]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

My goodness, aren't we a bit tetchy?

Entering the postcode for "the house that doesn't exist" into that website should bring up more evidence regarding the council's absurd claim.

I also wonder how many people are eligible to vote who claim to live there.

And my goodness, aren't we a bit of a smart arse?

It doesn't really matter how many people who are eligible to vote live there, or not as the case may be, well not to Sarah, anyway, all she needs to do is prove that she isn't the one liable for the Council Tax. Although I do agree that it would be illuminating for the Council to find out how many people eligible to vote live there, as they would therefore be liable for the Council Tax.

Apologies Sarah for detracting from your thread.

[CleverClogs]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

And my goodness, aren't we a bit of a smart arse?

At the most I was living up to my sobriquet.

It doesn't really matter how many people who are eligible to vote live there, or not as the case may be, well not to Sarah, anyway,

No, of course it doesn't; I only mentioned the number of voters at a non-existent address as that seems to be one possible explanation for the phantom address having been created. Another possible explanation would be catalogue or mail order fraud.

Such matters are, however, largely irrelevant to Sarah, who just needs to establish if the Valuation Office believes the address exists.

all she needs to do is prove that she isn't the one liable for the Council Tax.

If she can show that the address does not exist, it is perfectly plain that she cannot be liable for CT at that phantom property.

[SarahConnor]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

I have just came back from the ER office and have made some interesting (and also rather tragic) finds:

My name, as expected, is listed in the registry going back long before 2008 (I did not check previous dates - see below).

On the other (mickey-mouse) address there is nothing listed, apart from 2 years - 2009 and 2010 (ahem - the years included in the the Council's summons!) where there is only a single name, which isn't mine, but similar to the one of the owner of No 22 (according to the Land Registry) - I would say that they come from the same ethnic region. The house number listed in the registry however is 22A (the CT summons lists 22B) - there is nothing else there as far back as 2007 where I last look.

So, to recap - my own address is "clean" as expected - I am listed from 2008 which is the first year I looked at, the other phantom address - there is nothing for 22B (the house number listed in the CT summons) at all in any years I looked at, though there is one name (not mine, obviously) which appears in the registry with house number 22A for years 2009 and 2010 (there is nothing else in any other years I looked at).

I have also asked the nice people at the registry office to contact Electoral Roll Services (they are a separate division, apparently) and issue an "official" confirmation for my address. In other words, to confirm that I have been listed in the ER since 2001 (which I have been), so that I could take that document and add it to my case papers. I was unable to make any copies of the registry as this was not allowed.

The Valuation Office website (thank you, CleverClogs!), however, says something completely different:

There are 5 (yes, five!) entries made on that address:
22A (deleted as of 1996), 22A (current), 22B (deleted as of 1996), 22B (current) and 22C (deleted as of 1996) - all bearing band A (my property for which I have been paying my CT is band B).

How is that possible?!

Is the Council allowed to do such a thing and "split" a legal address into "A", "B" and "C" without informing the Land Registry (again, to recap - Royal Mail and the Land Registry does not recognise any address other than 22 - *no* letters).

What does that actually mean for me then?

Question for you WendyB: My understanding is that I am only liable for paying council tax if I own the property, not if I live there, is that right?

Otherwise, the owner of that mickey-mouse property might not wish to pay his CT and claim that I have been living there (he could even fabricate a tenancy agreement if he is so desperate to dodge paying CT). Is that right?

Thanks a lot people!

[WendyB]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

Maybe property 22 has been split into flats? Possibly originally 22, then split, and making the flats A, B, C and so on. This happens often as the numbers either side ( I.e20, 24) will already be in use.

Yes, you are normally only liable if you live there although there are rules for 2nd properties also, I believe. I think it has to do with how long the property is inhabited/uninhabited per year. It's not something I've ever delved into in much detail, never having owned more than one property at a time.

[CleverClogs]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

My name, as expected, is listed in the registry going back long before 2008 (I did not check previous dates - see below).

On the other (mickey-mouse) address there is nothing listed, apart from 2 years - 2009 and 2010 (ahem - the years included in the the Council's summons!) where there is only a single name, which isn't mine, but similar to the one of the owner of No 22 (according to the Land Registry) - I would say that they come from the same ethnic region.

Are they Welsh?

So, to recap - my own address is "clean" as expected - I am listed from 2008 which is the first year I looked at, the other phantom address - there is nothing for 22B (the house number listed in the CT summons) at all in any years I looked at, though there is one name (not mine, obviously) which appears in the registry with house number 22A for years 2009 and 2010 (there is nothing else in any other years I looked at).

I have also asked the nice people at the registry office to contact Electoral Roll Services (they are a separate division, apparently) and issue an "official" confirmation for my address. In other words, to confirm that I have been listed in the ER since 2001 (which I have been), so that I could take that document and add it to my case papers. I was unable to make any copies of the registry as this was not allowed.

Quite. You've have to pay for a copy of the Electoral Register.

The Valuation Office website (thank you, CleverClogs!), however, says something completely different:

I thought it might. The Electoral Register records people who can vote, most of whom really do exist except in a few odd wards in Labour constituencies where, having apparently been packed into a property rather more tightly than sardines in a can, some might be expected to have perished from asphyxiation.

The Land Registry records ownership of land - and that may be your best weapon when you challenge the council to prove that you have ever owned that house.

The Valuation Office records - or should record - property at a given address, but it seems to be more than a bit odd:

There are 5 (yes, five!) entries made on that address:
22A (deleted as of 1996), 22A (current), 22B (deleted as of 1996), 22B (current) and 22C (deleted as of 1996) - all bearing band A (my property for which I have been paying my CT is band B).

How is that possible?!

It might make sense if the property was one house that might otherwise be in band C or D, which had been divided into three flats prior to 1996 and into only two flats thereafter.

What does that actually mean for me then?

It means that you're getting twice the rent from your holiday gites? :behindsofa:

More seriously, it seems even odder that the council should have linked you to that other property.

[SarahConnor]

Re: CT summons received - can I submit a couner claim (long)?

What I am still unclear about is would the information I have prepared (my own CT statements, ER records, RM and LR records which state there isn't such address, let alone link me to it) be enough to win my case?

I am also unclear what happens if the Council somehow fabricates some evidence that I have rented/lived in that property (there is no way on Earth that they can prove I own it as the LR records clearly show who the owner is) - by showing a "tenancy agreement" or some such from the person(s) who owns the property at that address (if they are cornered by the Council to pay their CT they'd do *anything* to get off the hook, surely)?

That is what worries me though as I am not sure who is ultimately responsible to pay CT - the owner of the property or the tenant who lives there (I think it's the owner, but then again, I am not a solicitor)?