Resident in care home liable?

[Chocs]

My mother is 85 and due to dementia lives in residential care, I have Power of Attorney for her. She moved from her flat 2 years ago. Before that she had first, the single person 25% discount, then for the last 18 months or so was exempt from CT due to severe mental impairment. When she moved to the home the housing slump was at it's worst and my sister and I decided to rent her flat to try and get some income towards the fees. This went fine, the first tenants moved out and there was a six week period when the flat was empty. The agency doing the letting received a CT bill for her as owner for the vacant six weeks, they paid it and passed on the charge to me as Attorney. I have been in touch with the Council about this as I cannot see why an elderly person who does not live in her flat and never will again should be liable, as she was exempt when she actually lived there. She doesn't even get the 25% discount she got when she did live there and paid CT and is more seriously mentally impaired than she was. She is fully self-funding in the home so the flat income is crucial to paying the fees. Can this be right, as legislation, broadly similar in England & Scotland says that people in care homes are exempt, but the Council says since tenants have lived there she isn't exempt. I have appealed and been told she is liable. Does anyone know of case law relating to this situation, it seems ludicrous to me. Thanks.

[lindybee]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

I'm by no means any expert on this, but if an agency is managing the lettings, surely there must be something in the agreement which you have with them which covers periods of non-occupancy?
As your mum doesn't live there, I don't think her council tax exemption can apply, it will apply to where she personally actually lives.
There is a reduction in CT for vacant properties, but I'm unsure how this works.
I'd go back to the agency first if I were you.
Good luck!
L.

[Amy]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

This appears to me as if the council is trying to have their cake and eat it.

Your Mother is in a care home and therefore exempt from CT at that property. So if the property is empty, because she is in a care home (regardless of whether or not it's had previous tenants) the property is now empty and she'd be exempt in any case if she lived there.

Who did you appeal to and do you have their reply in writing?

[chrissiej]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

Hi, my twopenny worth if its any help. I have a rental property and it has been empty a couple of times between tenants. You can get up to three months at nil council tax for empty property but you have to apply for it and call it that. Although when tenants move in they are usually there for at least six months, I believe that the rules are quite relaxed about how long the property must be occupied (and therefore council tax paid at whatever rate) before it becomes empty and you can again claim empty property relief. With some councils it is as little as six weeks. So in theory - you could have three months empty property relief - six weeks occupied with someone paying council tax - then another three months empty relief - etc etc.

Not sure how many times you can do this before the council say - that's enough! Also not sure whether the empty property relief is discretionary or mandatory - certainly in Bristol you only have to ask .........:beagle:
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Forgot to say - you don't have to pay water rates either for any period the property is empty - no matter how long that is. You just need to let the water company know. :tinysmile_grin_t:

[lindybee]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

This appears to me as if the council is trying to have their cake and eat it.

Your Mother is in a care home and therefore exempt from CT at that property. So if the property is empty, because she is in a care home (regardless of whether or not it's had previous tenants) the property is now empty and she'd be exempt in any case if she lived there.

Who did you appeal to and do you have their reply in writing?

Also, if it works the same in Scotland as in England, the Council Authority should have sent out an officer to assess your mum's financial situation prior to her going into the care home, and they then inform the Council of the date she was due to move into the care home and cease to live in the property.
As my mum also had dementia, I was listed as her "responsible person" and I was given a copy of this report to be able to organise everything. It was slightly different for us as mum was in a council house, and paid her council tax monthly by DD. But no CT was charged after she went into the home even though I was given 3 months to clear the house and return the keys.
Maybe it is just the fact that the property is being rented out to generate income which is causing the problems? If this is the case your mum's financial assessment will help to resolve it, but I still feel the rental agency needs to clarify the situation, as they initially accepted the CT charges and then passed them on to you.
On a slightly different note, I know just how hard it is to face the problems of a family member suffering from dementia. Nothing any-one can say to you can prepare you for how you feel every time you see them. Just be strong and remember them for the person they really are, not for the odd times when things are bad. Don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it, becuse often it's the family who are most affected, and need support.
Hugzzz to you,
Lindy

[righty]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

If your mother has medical needs & requires to be reminded to eat wash etc then she is probably entitled to NHS care which is free (they pay te bill). My advice is to have her reassessed asap & Google for one of the many expert charities that will help you

[Chocs]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

Thanks to all for helpful replies, has given me stuff to think about. I will go back and look up the empty propery relief info from the council, although they've previously said that all you get is 10% off, so she's not even entitled to the 25% she'd be getting off if she lived there and wasn't mentally incapable! I will also check on the water rates which are certainly included in the payment.

And Lindy and Righty, thanks, because you reminded me that my mum will now qualify for the slightly higher contribution from the govt for her care as she is worse than she was when originally assessed.

I contacted a local councillor about this as having worked for the Council I know that they tend to have more clout than anyone. The reply to him and forwarded to me is below.

I refer to your e-mail of 23rd February to Mr Ewan Ogilvie and apologise for the delay in replying.

On behalf of: Councillor Gordon Mackenzie
Constituent: *****
Enquiry submitted by: ***** Power of Attorney for ***.

Mrs ***'s case highlights an area of Council Tax Legislation which regularly causes misinterpretation of the rules and incorrect application of entitlement to Discounts and or Exemptions.

The following is an overview of the relevant regulations:

Legal Source:
The Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Scotland) Order 1997, Schedule 1

Council Tax Exemptions (regulations)

A property will normally be exempt because:

1. The type of people who live in it are exempt (applies to students and SMI) or
2. The type of people who have left it empty (applies to students and SMI) or
3. The type of property it is
4. The property is empty of people and unfurnished for less than six months.

Council Tax Liability periods for *** Edinburgh

1.
31/08/04 to 13/08/09 – Mrs *** was resident and liable.
28/03/08 to 13/08/09 – Mrs *** was resident and qualified for SMI status and exemption from Council Tax

2.
14/08/09 to 14/06/10 – Tenants resident and liable for Council Tax

3.
15/06/10 to 28/07/10 – Property unoccupied but furnished.

Although Mrs *** is in a care home due to SMI status and was previously exempt from Council Tax this was because Mrs *** was resident in the property.

4
29/07/10 to date – Tenants resident and liable


Another rule that may have applied: Properties left empty by Patients in Hospital / Care Homes.

A property will be entitled to exemption from Council Tax if it is unoccupied because the former resident is now a long term patient in a hospital / care home.

The interpretation of this rule is that the former residents prior to the unoccupied period (15/06/10 to 28/07/10) were tenants not Mrs *** therefore, Mrs *** does not qualify for exemption under this ruling.

The following rule may assist Mrs Masterton in the future. If the property is rented to a student and their tenancy ends and there is a period where the property is unoccupied then tenanted again by a student as long as the unoccupied gap between tenanted periods (by students) is less than 4 months then the property will automatically qualify for exemption.

I appreciate that these rules are confusing and I hope my explanation satisfactorily answers your enquiry.

I am satisfied that the Revenues and Benefits officer has correctly interpreted the situation and has only granted a 10 % Discount and not an exemption due to SMI or Care Home status.

If you require further information please do not hesitate to contact me.


All very nice about students, unfortunately as my mother's flat is in a block occupied solely by elderly people (we have rented to young families only), it is not appropriate to have students in there possibly partying and annoying the other residents.

So I will get back on to them. There is another stage of appeal to the valuation board, so I'm going to be doing that today.

Thanks again to all.

[Chocs]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

Just a quick update for anyone who might find themselves in this situation. Having gone to the councillor I had more or less given up, but have now been told that although the council's decision is right and they have interpreted the legislation correctly, in this case my mum will get her money back. So a little victory, due entirely to shouting loudly and putting an actual person (councillor) in the position where he had to explain to me why he agreed this was the right decision. Have postponed my letter to the valuation board but will still go ahead with it, it's time this anomaly was properly addressed. Maybe the law is slightly different in England, there must be thousands of elderly people up and down the country in this position.

[righty]

Re: Resident in care home liable?

My mother is 85 and due to dementia lives in residential care, I have Power of Attorney for her. She moved from her flat 2 years ago. Before that she had first, the single person 25% discount, then for the last 18 months or so was exempt from CT due to severe mental impairment. When she moved to the home the housing slump was at it's worst and my sister and I decided to rent her flat to try and get some income towards the fees. This went fine, the first tenants moved out and there was a six week period when the flat was empty. The agency doing the letting received a CT bill for her as owner for the vacant six weeks, they paid it and passed on the charge to me as Attorney. I have been in touch with the Council about this as I cannot see why an elderly person who does not live in her flat and never will again should be liable, as she was exempt when she actually lived there. She doesn't even get the 25% discount she got when she did live there and paid CT and is more seriously mentally impaired than she was. She is fully self-funding in the home so the flat income is crucial to paying the fees. Can this be right, as legislation, broadly similar in England & Scotland says that people in care homes are exempt, but the Council says since tenants have lived there she isn't exempt. I have appealed and been told she is liable. Does anyone know of case law relating to this situation, it seems ludicrous to me. Thanks.

You say shes self funding & suffering from dementia then the most important thing you should do is have her re-assessd for NHS care. Does she need to be watched to make sure she does or assisted to eat, toilet, dress, take her medication etc