Council tax debt

[willboy]

Re: Council tax debt

No, but if you were paying council tax elsewhere and can prove it, then this will help. Have you given the council the name of this ex-friend of yours so that they can trace him?

Hi Amy
Thanks for the heads-up, I will just have to rely on bank evidence and perhaps a statement off my parents that I was living with them during the period under question.

The council have the name of my ex-friend, there is a record of him visiting the council on this issue, and he is on record as having purchased the property in 2001.

[Caspar]

Re: Council tax debt

I suspect this is where we're heading. If you can prove you paid council tax living at your parents house then the other property MAY fall into one of the categories below. This could certainly be used to substantially reduce the bill. I would mention to the council on Monday that they may want to start trying to trace your "friend" and see what they say.


Properties exempt from council tax

Some property is exempt from council tax altogether. It may be exempt for only a short period, for example, six months, or indefinitely.

Properties which may be exempt include:

• property which is empty. This means it has to be unoccupied. The property also has to be substantially unfurnished. The exemption applies for a maximum of six months and the property has to be vacant for the whole of this period (although up to six weeks of occupation during the period is allowed)
• property which is vacant because it needs major repairs or alterations to make it habitable. The exemption applies for a maximum of 12 months whether the work is actually finished or not by then
• condemned property
• property which has been legally re-possessed by a mortgage lender
• property unoccupied because the person who lived there now lives elsewhere because they need to be cared for, for example, in hospital, in a care home or with relatives
• property which is unoccupied because the person who lived there has gone to care for someone else
• any property that only students or Foreign Language Assistants on the official British Council programme live in. This may be a hall of residence, or a house
• a caravan or boat which is used as a main residence but which is unoccupied. This exemption lasts for up to six months. A holiday caravan or boat is exempt if it's on a property where council tax is paid
• a property where all the people who live in it are aged under 18
• property which is occupied only by people with severe mental impairment
• a self-contained ‘granny flat’ where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main property.

[willboy]

Re: Council tax debt

I suspect this is where we're heading. If you can prove you paid council tax living at your parents house then the other proerty MAY fall into one of the categories below. This could certainly be used to substantially reduce the bill. I would mention to the council on Monday that they may want to start trying to trace your "friend" and see what they say.


Properties exempt from council tax

Some property is exempt from council tax altogether. It may be exempt for only a short period, for example, six months, or indefinitely.

Properties which may be exempt include:

• property which is empty. This means it has to be unoccupied. The property also has to be substantially unfurnished. The exemption applies for a maximum of six months and the property has to be vacant for the whole of this period (although up to six weeks of occupation during the period is allowed)
• property which is vacant because it needs major repairs or alterations to make it habitable. The exemption applies for a maximum of 12 months whether the work is actually finished or not by then
• condemned property
• property which has been legally re-possessed by a mortgage lender
• property unoccupied because the person who lived there now lives elsewhere because they need to be cared for, for example, in hospital, in a care home or with relatives
• property which is unoccupied because the person who lived there has gone to care for someone else
• any property that only students or Foreign Language Assistants on the official British Council programme live in. This may be a hall of residence, or a house
• a caravan or boat which is used as a main residence but which is unoccupied. This exemption lasts for up to six months. A holiday caravan or boat is exempt if it's on a property where council tax is paid
• a property where all the people who live in it are aged under 18
• property which is occupied only by people with severe mental impairment
• a self-contained ‘granny flat’ where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main property.

Yes, I think my ex-friend was intending to provide evidence that it was uninhabitable. My mistake was relying on him to deal with it. As far as I am concerned I acted as any reasonable person would and assumed that it had been dealt with because no effort was made to contact me despite my address being readily available.

My general argument will be based on the following:

The council failed to make reasonable efforts to contact me, even from 2003 when I was on the electoral register. Had they done so I would have dealt with the issue immediately and obtained the empty exemption. I paid council tax contributions at my parents where I had been living. Clearly the main problem is the lack of evidence, I have literally nothing relating to the property so I will be requesting the SAR at the meeting. At least that will have evidence of my ex-friend going to the council.

I also intend putting this all in writing and submitting the letter at the meeting. Hopefully this may provide me with some room for maneouvre and negotiation.

Thanks for the support, I would apreciate any thoughts about my intended plan.

[Caspar]

Re: Council tax debt

Yes, I think my ex-friend was intending to provide evidence that it was uninhabitable. My mistake was relying on him to deal with it. As far as I am concerned I acted as any reasonable person would and assumed that it had been dealt with because no effort was made to contact me despite my address being readily available.

My general argument will be based on the following:

The council failed to make reasonable efforts to contact me, even from 2003 when I was on the electoral register. Had they done so I would have dealt with the issue immediately and obtained the empty exemption. I paid council tax contributions at my parents where I had been living. Clearly the main problem is the lack of evidence, I have literally nothing relating to the property so I will be requesting the SAR at the meeting. At least that will have evidence of my ex-friend going to the council.

I also intend putting this all in writing and submitting the letter at the meeting. Hopefully this may provide me with some room for maneouvre and negotiation.

Thanks for the support, I would apreciate any thoughts about my intended plan.

Good idea always to put it in writing and take a copy for yourself. When I went to the council last Friday I asked them to sign confirming the discussion that had taken place and the important bits of it, which they willingly did. Do you realise there's a very good SAR template letter on here - if not just say and I'll post the link.

[willboy]

Re: Council tax debt

Yes thanks Casper, already downloaded it after Enaid pointed it out.

[Amy]

Re: Council tax debt

Will, try this one Bailiff - SAR - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[willboy]

Re: Council tax debt

Thanks Amy
Very useful, in particular it suggests I need to be pretty comprehrnsive in what I ask for.

[willboy]

Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Hi Guys
As you know I have a meeting with the council to dispute my liability for a council tax debt (see council tax debt thread in council tax issues, willboy). Just a couple of questions:

1. If I make an offer to start paying something is that legally admitting the whole debt?

2. The council dont know my current address, all communication is C/O at the address they sent the demand to. Am I under any obligation to, or should I let them know my real address? What should I do if they ask where I work? (There is a liability order that I have never seen).

3. I have already obtained a statutory declaration stating that all the property at the C/O address belongs to my parents.

I have tried to cover all the bases here, if they play the bailiff card I am prepared for that (because of all the fab information on this forum) , but I want to keep the focus of the discussion on the question of liability. I suspect that they will try to obtain my current address and place of work.

Any advice welcome
Thanks

[paulb2905]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Yes payment can be assumed as admission of debt - you should make sure you send any payment with a covering letter stating "without prejudice" to any alleged debt (or similar)

[Caspar]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Hi Guys
As you know I have a meeting with the council to dispute my liability for a council tax debt (see council tax debt thread in council tax issues, willboy). Just a couple of questions:

1. If I make an offer to start paying something is that legally admitting the whole debt?
It is admitting the debt, but cover yourself by stating by letter with any payment you do not acknowledge the full debt, but as a gesture of goodwill.....
2. The council dont know my current address, all communication is C/O at the address they sent the demand to. Am I under any obligation to, or should I let them know my real address? What should I do if they ask where I work? (There is a liability order that I have never seen).
Do they know you're not at that address. If not let them keep sending stuff there. Otherwise there's an issue with registering on the Electoral Role? Unsure whether you have a duty to declare your workplace - I can see you don't want them to get an attachment of earnings. Have you SAR'd them? Surely if you did you'd get a copy of the liability order?
3. I have already obtained a statutory declaration stating that all the property at the C/O address belongs to my parents.
Spot on - well done!
I have tried to cover all the bases here, if they play the bailiff card I am prepared for that (because of all the fab information on this forum) , but I want to keep the focus of the discussion on the question of liability. I suspect that they will try to obtain my current address and place of work.

Any advice welcome
Thanks

[willboy]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Thanks again for the prompt replies:

I will knock something up to accompany the payment.. if I actually make a payment.
SAR all in hand ready to hit them with it tomorrow.

they dont know where I live now, and I am using my parents address as a C/O address. Obviously i want to protect my parents from bailiffs thus the stat dec. Also I have briefed my parents on what to if the thugs do turn up. They are cool with that.

I am still on the electoral register at my parents though.

I am bit worried about whether I have to declare my employment details, I haven't seen any liability order!!

Cheers guys, will report back tomorrow.

[Caspar]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Don't know if either of these help. I suspect you may have the right not to tell the council, but if you don't they caan force you through the courts to disclose, so you might as well save yourself the grief! Cannot find any definitive answer as to whether or not you have to disclose it though.

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/Direct/8598...oyersGuide.pdf

http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/answers/c...ofEarnings.pdf

If they go for attachment of earnings, ask to see the liability order. Without this they can't get an attachment of earnings as I read things.

David

[Amy]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

If you are going to make an offer to pay, then you must stick to this and continue to make the payments as agreed or the recovery action will escalate, but I'm not sure why you would offer any payment if you don't believe you owe the money.

Marking the letter accompanying your payment "without prejudice" is completely irrelevant. This is used to preclude litigation and to negotiate a settlement of a debt. This has already gone to court hence the liability order and whatever payment Will makes is not a negotiation since council tax must be paid and he cannot pay any less than what is owed.

You are also highly unlikely ever to receive a copy of the liability order since they are not issued routinely. However, you could ask for this at the meeting.

I am confused as to why you are attending this meeting if you are afraid you will be forced to provide details of your employment and home details. You could just send your SAR and wait for the results.

[willboy]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

Hi Amy

I intend to fulfil the requirements of the demand which states that I need to pay within 14 days or inform them if I don't think I am liable (that time is up tomorrow although I have phoned and tried to explain). I wanted to explain face to face, and have it recorded.

I intend to personally SAR them there and then.

So do you think I should just SAR them then leave and wait until I get that back before I proceed any further?


Thanks

[Caspar]

Re: Is a payment acknowledgement of a debt

I think your intentions are good, but if I were you I'd write another letter tonight stating why you don't think you're liable and asking them for proof that you are.

Hand them that with the SAR - explain what they are and ask for a dated receipt for them, then leave.

Just my opinion mind!