CT - council playing 'silly beggars'

[charitynjw]

Just a quickie.

Some years ago (2015-2016) we had a dispute with the council re the amount being demanded. We know that their calculations were incorrect, challenged them about it (loads of documentary evidence), but they pressed ahead with a LO.
We complained vehemently about this, & they agreed to call off the 'dogs of war' (EO) in order to sort out this debacle.
We have had no further problem with EO's on this, despite the fact that it still remains unresolved & shows on CT statements as an historic debt.

Fast forward to 2017-2018
Due to changes in circumstances (all correctly reported to the council - ie son turning 18, children no longer residing at the address, etc etc), fluctuating payments were being demanded (£20 here. £250 there & so on, which we paid)
All of these were clearly for the (then) current year per the demands.

We now find that the council have used these to pay towards the historic alleged debt, &, (due to complex circumstances which would require another post to explain) they have issued an LO on the 2017-2018 bill.

(This is the crux of it, but as always with these things, it is long, complex & protracted.)

Advice on what to do, gratefully received.

Ta

[Amethyst]

Have you got a full breakdown / transaction list out of them so you know what went where ?

Is there council tax benefit/discount etc in the mix here too ? ( just with the change in circumstances mention )

[charitynjw]

1.
No, not 'officially', but pending (DSAR)
But we have FOIA in which they admit that their system is set up for payments to go to historic outstanding debts.


2.
Yep.....& they don't know their 'Arris' from their elbow.
That is why payment amounts were sporadic & all over the place.

[ploddertom]

You need to sort this out whether you like it or not. Once the Council have a LO against you they can use a raft of measures to enforce it, at the same time you are being charged some £120 each time they apply for the LO so in 5 years it racks up to some £600 at a guess. If you have issues with the Council then best bet is to see your local Councillor(s) and ask they intervene on your behalf.

[charitynjw]

You need to sort this out whether you like it or not. Once the Council have a LO against you they can use a raft of measures to enforce it, at the same time you are being charged some £120 each time they apply for the LO so in 5 years it racks up to some £600 at a guess. If you have issues with the Council then best bet is to see your local Councillor(s) and ask they intervene on your behalf.

Thanks for that, Ploddertom.

Just to clarify, the historic 'debt' includes an LO, but the council stopped EO action on it back in 2016, & we haven't had any problems (EO) on it since then. It remains unresolved to date, despite numerous letters, emails etc. from us in an effort to sort it out.

But the problem has arisen re the 2017-2018 bill due to the council using payments, which clearly should have been for 2017-2018 having been used by the council to clear the historic (alleged) debt.

This, of course, led to a perceived shortfall in 2017-2018 payment, hence the LO.

[lgfa92]

But we have FOIA in which they admit that their system is set up for payments to go to historic outstanding debts..

The most common council tax systems have a series of rules they use to allocate payments. If the payments matched the exact amounts then it's unusual for the systems not to automatically allocate them to the correct periods - the systems are set to watch for a matching balance against the instalment otherwise the whole system would fall apart quite rapidly.

Did you pay the exact amount requested on the instalment shown on the latest demand notice you had received at that point in time ?

When you look at the latest demand notice what does it show in respect of the amount paid to date for the tax year ?

[charitynjw]

The most common council tax systems have a series of rules they use to allocate payments. If the payments matched the exact amounts then it's unusual for the systems not to automatically allocate them to the correct periods - the systems are set to watch for a matching balance against the installment otherwise the whole system would fall apart quite rapidly.

Did you pay the exact amount requested on the installment shown on the latest demand notice you had received at that point in time ?

When you look at the latest demand notice what does it show in respect of the amount paid to date for the tax year ?

The 2017-2018 payments made by us from time to time, did match the demands sent to us during that year.
They were for varying amounts due to changes in circumstances during the year (properly reported by us to the council.)

Unfortunately some of our copies of bills have gone astray......we have (just) sent a DSAR requesting relevant data.

[lgfa92]

The 2017-2018 payments made by us from time to time did match the demands sent to us during that year.
They were for varying amounts due to changes in circumstances during the year (properly reported by us to the council.)

Were the amounts in question also match the instalment dates I.e. if it asked for £20 on X date, did paid the £20 by X date rather than £20 on X date + a week or two.

What I'm also wondering is whether or not you've hit on a technical issue which can occur where there have been multiple changes and can cause your issue to occur (seen it happen many times when I was still working in a council and since then with some of my clients). For example, If a demand notice is asking for £20.00 on 1 March 2019 and an adjustment happens on 27 February 2019 then most people will have paid the £20.00 before the new bill arrives but the council system is already looking for the amended instalments. If the £20.00 then does not match the new payment that is expected then CTax systems can be set to default an un-matched payment to any arrears.

[charitynjw]

Were the amounts in question also match the instalment dates I.e. if it asked for £20 on X date, did paid the £20 by X date rather than £20 on X date + a week or two.

What I'm also wondering is whether or not you've hit on a technical issue which can occur where there have been multiple changes and can cause your issue to occur (seen it happen many times when I was still working in a council and since then with some of my clients). For example, If a demand notice is asking for £20.00 on 1 March 2019 and an adjustment happens on 27 February 2019 then most people will have paid the £20.00 before the new bill arrives but the council system is already looking for the amended instalments. If the £20.00 then does not match the new payment that is expected then CTax systems can be set to default an un-matched payment to any arrears.

I am not sure of the exact timeline of all the payments.
It will involve cross-referring between CT demands, & payments made (bank statements.)

As some of that info is missing atm, I don't want to start guessing what happened when.

But I do feel that, as the council are well aware of the dispute over the older debt, they should transfer the erroneous payments which were paid into the historic debt, back into the 2017-2018 year, which would then fully satisfy any alleged outstanding 2017-2018 amount, & so there would be no need for the LO.

But it's as painful as pulling teeth trying to deal with them.
An example being:
One of our sons, Billy, moved out because he had obtained a house of his own. He was listed as 'William' on the council records.
In trying to sort even this simple thing, we were asked questions such as "When did William M move out & Billy M (same surname) move into your house. As though they were 2 different people......
.
Honestly, you couldn't make it up.......

[lgfa92]

I am not sure of the exact timeline of all the payments.
It will involve cross-referring between CT demands, & payments made (bank statements.)

As some of that info is missing atm, I don't want to start guessing what happened when.

The only way to check is to get the details and do so. Until things like that are checked you will simply be stuck in a perpetual argument with the council. In 90%+ of situations like this checking the dates against payments will provide an answer on the payment allocation (believe me, I've dealt with thousands of council tax problems over the years and it's rare to sort them without cross checking instalments and payment dates).

[charitynjw]

The only way to check is to get the details and do so. Until things like that are checked you will simply be stuck in a perpetual argument with the council. In 90%+ of situations like this checking the dates against payments will provide an answer on the payment allocation (believe me, I've dealt with thousands of council tax problems over the years and it's rare to sort them without cross checking instalments and payment dates).

Thanks lgfa92

SAR is on it's way to the council as we 'speak'.


In the meantime, who is the (job description) senior bod at the council (who deals with CT.)?

Perhaps we'll get more joy contacting the 'engineer'.

[lgfa92]

Thanks lgfa92

SAR is on it's way to the council as we 'speak'.


In the meantime, who is the (job description) senior bod at the council (who deals with CT.)?

Perhaps we'll get more joy contacting the 'engineer'.

Depends - each council does it slightly different. At the very top there's usually a councillor with the portfolio for revenues. If you look it up the council website should tell you.

[charitynjw]