Title deeds

[ukemjack]

My grandmother passed away in 2016 and as the will was untraceable we as family members had to apply for probate. This was a long process and was granted in June 2018. We are trying to sell the property she resided in pre her admission to nursing care in 2013 and she has care home fees to pay back to the Local Authority. Upon trying to sell the house it has come to light that she is not the owner of the property the title deeds are all in my late grandfather's name. So how do we proceed now ? We cannot sell to pay the fees. Is she still liable for the fees as the property does not actually form part of her estate then if she is not on the title deeds. Furthermore we as individuals are being pursued for council tax bills totalling £3000 by bailiffs for empty property charges from her death until June this year when probate was granted and from probate date until March 2019. I don't know if the council tax bill now stands either ?. We may have to apply for probate now for my late grandfather (again no traceable will) but how would the estate be divided - would it go to next of kin but how does this impact on paying these care home fees ? Very long winded very difficult situation.

[Peridot]

Hi Ukemjack,
Sorry to hear of the issues. It is unfortunate that your grandfather did not have a Will but not impossible to deal with . It will be necessary to unravel back to when he passed away and what would have happened under the intestacy rules. So if your grandmother would have inherited the property (depending on the value then) you will need to obtain a grant in respect of Grandfather's estate and then work forward again.
Unfortunately council tax is only halted for a 6mth period when a property remains empty following a death then it will become due again and payable by the estate. You need to contact the Local Authority and explain the situation. How have Baliffs become involved? Do the Local Authority not know the situation? Is there sufficient funds in the estate to settle the council tax or is the property the only asset? As individuals you can't be pursued but the estate can be via the administrators. You need to speak to the LA.
It may also be sensible to get some advice from a probate lawyer on this, bearing in mind the unravelling that will need to be done in relation to your grandfather's estate, before you can move forward with your grandmother's estate. Depending on the value of his estate there may be inheritance tax to pay for example that will have to be dealt with as well as transferring the property as needs be to enable it to be sold.

[ukemjack]

Thanks for the response, very much appreciated. Unfortunately despite numerous phone calls and visits to the Council Offices they continue to pursue for the council tax debt. The property was empty for two years following my grandmothers death as we did not have probate therefore no authority to sell so this was unavoidable. The probate took so long as originally there was a will for my grandmother, however her solicitors had ceased trading so we were trying to locate the missing will and executors, however after very poor advice we applied for the probate which finally came through in June this year. We received the bill for this two year period addressed orginally to myself and after numerous contact with the council changed to Exors and then we received inviduals bills last week directed at me and my sister as individuals for the this year until March 2019 and have been advised if we don't make regular payments from now on it will go through the recovery process and be back in Court. The bailiffs were involved as originally the two year billing period was also in our names and not Exors - as above this has only just been amended (sorry all extremely confusing). We had numerous bailiff visits from 7.00 in a morning threatening to remove cars that were not financed. There is absolutely no money in the estate as it stands to pay the Council these bills, the sale of the property if it could have proceeded was to pay care home fees to the council, so even if we paid the council tax (which I don't believe should fall to us) we would be out of pocket as could not claim it back from anywhere as it stands. We also have the council pursuing us for the care home fees which on a deferred payment scheme, again this payment cannot be made as the property cannot sell obviously for reasons above.

[ostell]

Sometimes contact with a local councillor can help the situation in that the councillor can knock some send into the officials so that they see the nonsense that they are trying to enforce.

[ukemjack]

I have now contacted our councillor to see if he can assist. In respect of the probate for my grandfather - I am not sure how this would work with transferring the ownership of the property - without seeming stupid I don't think the Land Registry would then transfer the ownership to my late grandmother - so who would it transfer to ? Would it be the next of kin as it stands now. How does that impact upon the outstanding care fees. There was obviously no legal charge made on the property because it was not registered with the Land Registry. Can the Local Authority still pursue for outstanding care home fees. This is now proving very difficult to convince the Local Authority Council Tax Officers that we are not in a position to sell and they are going to continue to pursue us as executors for my grandmother for empty property charges (even though I have advised them the probate for her is now irrelevant) and I cannot proceed to sell the house until probate is granted for my grandfather. Can anyone help me out please - really struggling here with this mess

[Peridot]

To transfer the property you need to show the line of who legally owned it ie grandfather, then demonstrate grandmother inherited (provided she was entitled but this depends on the value of his estate when he died) then once sorted the property will pass to those entitled under grandmothers intestacy. It may be if you can demonstrate property went to grandmother then following her death her grant will allow the administrators to transfer the property on sale. Then debts of the estate will be sorted from the proceeds.
I suspect you need some professional help with this. The lawyers can then help deal with the care fee issue in addition and hopefully keep the local authority at bay.