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All monies on clause mortgages

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  • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

    They seem to have found ways around this nasty little clause in America and Australia, wonder when we will.

    'All monies' clauses - will they work in all cases?

    When drafting a letter of offer or facility agreement, it is important that all relevant securities (the lender wishes to be able to rely on to recover the facility) are expressly listed.

    Most securities, such as mortgages, usually have an 'all monies' clause. On its face, such a clause means that the security secures all amounts owing by the mortgagor/guarantor/chargor to the financier, regardless of whether the amounts are owed now or in the future and as a borrower or as a guarantor.

    However, recent authority confirms that such 'all monies' clauses may be read down by the courts depending upon the circumstances. If, for example, a security over a particular property is not expressly listed in a facility agreement as security for the facility, it is open for the courts to hold that the property may not be relied upon as security for that particular facility even though the security contains a sufficiently wide all monies clause.

    The law:
    In Fountain v Bank of America National Trust & Savings Association (1992) 5 BPR 11 (Fountain), the NSW Court of Appeal upheld an 'all monies' clause that was expressed to apply to a customer’s 'past, present, future and contingent obligations and liabilities to you (the bank), including those arising under successive transactions”. The Court considered the phrase “successive transactions” and noted that the subsequent borrowing of money by a related company (coupled with an associated guarantee provided by the original borrower) was a “successive transaction'. However, the Court was careful to note that an 'all monies' clause would not apply to every subsequent transaction entered into between the bank and the customer (or related party), and that such clauses must 'be confined to their operation by reference to the context in which they appear and by reference to the commercial purpose which they were intended to serve'.

    This final comment in Fountain was picked up by the Federal Court of Australia in Handberg v Chacmol Holdings Pty Ltd (2004) FCA 720 (Handberg). In this case, a deed of charge containing a generic 'all monies' clause was read down and held not to apply to future advances made by Chacmol to Australian Underwriting Agencies Pty Ltd (AUA). The Court held that the charge should be confined to secure the initial transaction only (in this case, securing a pre-existing debt and a sale price) and that subsequent advances made by Chacmol to AUA did not form part of this initial transaction.

    Comment


    • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

      to be frank, I would consider contacting shelter and seeing if they have any advice. My understanding is that the agreement should prevent reposession if you abide by their terms, however, your position is precarious at best unless you get the order suspended.

      Comment


      • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

        Originally posted by EXC View Post
        Neither Bob E or Wendy from MSE have heard of the 'all monies clause I'm afraid.

        Very interesting. Just goes to show how little known this clause is. I bet there are a lot more mortgage products with this clause than we realise out there. I really do think this needs to be publicised as I see it as a stealth tactic used by banks to hide what they can actually do in law.
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        Best I wait for their answer first methinks

        Originally posted by scoobydoo View Post
        Hi Jester

        I think if they do contact you as a result of your email or if you call them that is exactly what you should be aiming for . An extension of the interest only payments/ the Immediate threat of loosing your house removed and confirmation of all of this in writing . Plus possibly an apology for the way you have been treated.

        Do you know what costs have been added to your account if any in respect f the court hearing? If there are some I would possibly be asking for a refund on the basis that they lied in the POC about how you had not been in contact with them . Worth a try

        today is supposed to be very lucky in china - maybe it will be a turning point for you

        Scooby
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        The Australian side of this in particular is interesting as I have understood from many UK Lawyers that Aussie law is VERY similar to that of the UK. Probably because as a former colony it's laws were UK Law when the country was first formed.

        I can't see Lawyers in UK taking too much notice of USA case law, but I do think the Aussie Case Law could be used as a basis.


        Originally posted by enaid View Post
        They seem to have found ways around this nasty little clause in America and Australia, wonder when we will.

        'All monies' clauses - will they work in all cases?

        When drafting a letter of offer or facility agreement, it is important that all relevant securities (the lender wishes to be able to rely on to recover the facility) are expressly listed.

        Most securities, such as mortgages, usually have an 'all monies' clause. On its face, such a clause means that the security secures all amounts owing by the mortgagor/guarantor/chargor to the financier, regardless of whether the amounts are owed now or in the future and as a borrower or as a guarantor.

        However, recent authority confirms that such 'all monies' clauses may be read down by the courts depending upon the circumstances. If, for example, a security over a particular property is not expressly listed in a facility agreement as security for the facility, it is open for the courts to hold that the property may not be relied upon as security for that particular facility even though the security contains a sufficiently wide all monies clause.

        The law:
        In Fountain v Bank of America National Trust & Savings Association (1992) 5 BPR 11 (Fountain), the NSW Court of Appeal upheld an 'all monies' clause that was expressed to apply to a customer’s 'past, present, future and contingent obligations and liabilities to you (the bank), including those arising under successive transactions”. The Court considered the phrase “successive transactions” and noted that the subsequent borrowing of money by a related company (coupled with an associated guarantee provided by the original borrower) was a “successive transaction'. However, the Court was careful to note that an 'all monies' clause would not apply to every subsequent transaction entered into between the bank and the customer (or related party), and that such clauses must 'be confined to their operation by reference to the context in which they appear and by reference to the commercial purpose which they were intended to serve'.

        This final comment in Fountain was picked up by the Federal Court of Australia in Handberg v Chacmol Holdings Pty Ltd (2004) FCA 720 (Handberg). In this case, a deed of charge containing a generic 'all monies' clause was read down and held not to apply to future advances made by Chacmol to Australian Underwriting Agencies Pty Ltd (AUA). The Court held that the charge should be confined to secure the initial transaction only (in this case, securing a pre-existing debt and a sale price) and that subsequent advances made by Chacmol to AUA did not form part of this initial transaction.
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        Already spoken to Shelter. They were very helpful and supportive as one would expect as they are used to this.

        She commented that they are having a huge workload at the moment due to the increase in repossessions.

        She did also express shock that I appear to being forced out of my home for just one month arrears though. However, surprisingly she had never heard of an 'all-monies' mortgage before or what it's consequences were. She was very shocked when I enlightened her on it !!


        Originally posted by tomterm8 View Post
        to be frank, I would consider contacting shelter and seeing if they have any advice. My understanding is that the agreement should prevent reposession if you abide by their terms, however, your position is precarious at best unless you get the order suspended.
        Last edited by Jester; 11th August 2008, 09:48:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

        Comment


        • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

          Jester, I don't know if you have seen this site:-


          http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/civil/cls_news_8539.asp

          xxxx

          Comment


          • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

            Thanks Tutts.

            However, reading that article it seems to be that this is only available in England. I will have to find out if it also applies to courts in Wales.

            Originally posted by TUTTSI View Post
            Jester, I don't know if you have seen this site:-


            http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/civil/cls_news_8539.asp

            xxxx

            Comment


            • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

              10:58 ken99
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              ken99 Novitiate


              Default All Monies charge - mortgage?
              I have a problem with NatWest One (really a brand name of the RBS One account). I am facing reposession and need legal help but can't find anyone to help me as all the solicitors I have spoken to say they have no experience of this kind of account.

              I had a "normal" mortgage account with NatWest for some years but my manager persuaded me to change to a "Natwest One Account" which I did 4 years ago. This is an account where all savings, salary and mortgage go into the same account and it is supposed to save money.

              To cut a long story short, I wasn';t able to pay my mortgage for some months and they went through the process to reposess the house. The banks solicitors sent me a letter asking me to put forward a proposal to pay off the arrears, which I did, but they also said they would ask for a possession order anyway. I went to court where the judge gave them a possession order and said said that "since this is an all-monies charge he has no powers to order the bank to do anything and can do nothing except grant them the order". This was a shock to me as I was expecting to be able to come to an agreement at the hearing but the judge insisted that this wasn't a normal mortgage account and he could do nothing.

              On the paperwork sent from the court and even on the bumf they sent me it seems to refer to it all as a mortgage and this is what I reasonably believed I had.

              I have explained my situation to several solicitors already and they say they haven't any experience with this kind of account and so can't help. Has anyone got any ideas or contacts?

              If it isn't a mortgage and so I don't have any rights then I wonder if the fact that they charged me thousands in bank charges and this led to this situation can be used as an appeal?
              #staysafestayhome

              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

              Comment


              • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                An Update:

                I received a call from RBS this morning due to the letter I sent in asking for clarification of the bank's intentions in regard to the repossession order.

                Basically, they have confirmed that I do NOT have to vacate my property by 23rd September. They have assured me that they will adhere to interest-only payments that I have previously agreed with them and will NOT be pursuing a warrant for eviction, as long as I keep to the agreed payment plan.

                In October, if the arrears have not been cleared, they are prepared to enter into negotiations to extend the period of interest-only payments.

                If I do repay the arrears by October, then they have confirmed that they CANNOT pursue a warrant for eviction as in that case there would be no arrears on which to base it.

                Apparently, the reason that they went for an Unconditional Repossession Order is because the repayment schedule I agreed with them does not allow for recovery of the arrears. Were I paying an agreed sum AND paying off some of the arrears each month, then they would have merely gone for a Suspended Repossession Order.

                So, it is a matter of waiting to see if HSBC are going to refund my bank charges based on Financial Hardship so that I may be in a position to pay off the arrears and therefore get the Repossession Order lifted.

                In fairness, on the call RBS acknowledged the fact that prior to my unemployment last August, my payment record had been 'perfect'. They also acknowledged that were I to be successful in securing employment once again and going back to normal payments then they would also then lift the repossession order (assuming I have also paid off the arrears).

                I have asked for all this in writing and they have agreed to do so. They have not told me how long the Repossession Order will hang over me while I remain unemployed.

                So, I still have possession of my home and will continue to do so unless I fail to keep to the agreed payments. Let's just hope that I am succesful in getting my money back from HSBC and that at least one of the job possibilities I have come to fruition (another two strong possibilities came to light yesterday). Hopefully, this is the start of my finally turning the corner in regard to my luck of late.

                Thanks All

                Comment


                • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                  Hi Jester

                  Thats fab news and sounds promising that they will not evict you as the court has ordered.

                  I am not sure what others think but I personally would not be happy with the fact that on the 56 day the bailiffs could just turn up!! with a court order and whether you now have to go back to the court for them to lift the order as something should be done legally for your security.

                  xxx

                  Comment


                  • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                    Bloody brilliant.

                    If I was you I wouldn't wait for it in writing. I'd whack off a letter with a detailed summary of what they said and ask them to confirm it.

                    I'm really pleased for ya.

                    Comment


                    • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                      Well done Jester

                      I think they are very guilty of not explaining things properly in the first place and they should be aware of all the extra stress this places on people at an already difficult time .

                      Just shows sometimes you have to be pro-active to get results.

                      Lets work really hard on getting those charges back now.

                      scooby
                      "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                      "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                      Comment


                      • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                        Good news eh hun, I'm really pleased for you, but make sure you get it all in writing as well.

                        (((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))

                        Comment


                        • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                          Originally posted by TUTTSI View Post
                          Hi Jester

                          Thats fab news and sounds promising that they will not evict you as the court has ordered.

                          I am not sure what others think but I personally would not be happy with the fact that on the 56 day the bailiffs could just turn up!! with a court order and whether you now have to go back to the court for them to lift the order as something should be done legally for your security.

                          xxx
                          This is not at all what the court ordered.

                          The court issued an order for possession, but this is not enforced immediately. If the terms of the agreement are not adhered too, then RBS may apply to the court for a “warrant of possession” and it is this which authorises the actual enforcement of the possession order.

                          Eviction is not automatic because a lender applies for and is granted a possession order.

                          Even a warrant of possession can be delayed with reasonable ease and as things are looking up for Jester day by day, I do not imagine it will come to that.

                          Well done Jester.

                          Comment


                          • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                            Absolutely brilliant Jester, I am so pleased for you

                            Hope there is good news on the job front as well
                            Member of the Beagles £2 coin and small change savers clubs, both based in the Debt Forum:11:

                            Comment


                            • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                              Definately get it in writing babe xxxx but great news well done.
                              #staysafestayhome

                              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                              Comment


                              • Re: All monies on clause mortgages

                                Sounds good Jest, glad it seems to be working out for you. And good luck with the jobs front. x
                                Is no longer here

                                Comment

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